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jezra t1_iu1tbqn wrote

the future in ocean travel is this amazing new technology called a 'sail' that harnesses the power of the wind to move a boat through water!

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starfyredragon t1_iu1zg0k wrote

To be fair, a rigid sail capable of pulling a full bulk transport is a fairly new tech.

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shave_your_teeth_pls t1_iu21gza wrote

This one can't pull the whole ship though. It'll reduce emissions by 5-8%, it's partially powered by wind, and not by much it seems.

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ContemplatingFolly t1_iu24ytd wrote

To tag on...I remember hearing about this potential idea like 15 years ago, and this is all they have to show for it?

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Northwindlowlander t1_iu26fyc wrote

It's a non trivial thing, it turns out. Most of the earlier schemes planned to use skysails (ie kites, basically), or something very like traditional sails, but they kept running into practicality issues. This solid sail approach is more complicated to implement but is supposed to be easier to operate and to not need much change in operator practices, training etc, and it's also supposed to be useful in more conditions.

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starfyredragon t1_iu2frdi wrote

... I wonder if a solid sail would work on a sailboat...

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LLCoolDave82 t1_iu2km62 wrote

America's cup (F1 for sailboat racing) switched to solid sails 10 years ago or so. It's basically a wing.

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ContemplatingFolly t1_iu2p6y9 wrote

Yes, that's what I recall reading about so long ago. Thanks for the update.

If they can get to the 20% someone mentioned above, that will be something. Its just getting kinda late.

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Alovebird t1_iu3svvz wrote

This isn't a specially designed ship, it's been retrofitted to a existing vessel, being able to cut 5-8% emissions off fleets of existing vessel's would add up fast.

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Schmancer t1_iu1zif2 wrote

In ground transport, the future is ultra-fast trains... A dramatically better version of the last thing is sometime the next big thing

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yiannistheman t1_iu2f3ph wrote

Bingo - some of the first cars were electric, which detractors actually use against EVs. As if technology is not allowed to mature over the course of a hundred years or so.

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saucybelly t1_iu41ga5 wrote

I read that in Dr. Evil’s voice and saw the finger quotes , while No. 2 is about to clear his throat

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Nastypilot t1_iu4664v wrote

My God, sail-powered ships! I can't believe it! What will they think of next?! /s

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jaa101 t1_iu1xvqc wrote

Keep in mind that the east coast of Australia was mapped by Captain Cook in 1770 ... sailing in a wind-powered vessel that was originally a coal carrier.

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lucifer-ase t1_iu1y8pg wrote

wind-assisted would be a more honest description. According to the article this type of sail reduces fuel consumption by 5-8%. There are some fully wind powered designs under testing or in the design pase (e.g. Windbird by Wallenius Marine AB - https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/12/swedish-firm-wind-powered-cargo-ships)

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edweirdmuybridge OP t1_iu4ek6f wrote

Like so many things on r/Futurology, this design looks great on a PowerPoint slide. But retrofitting existing ships allows us to improve fleet efficiency while simultaneously testing sail design and manufacturing processes so we can eventually make a fleet of fully wind powered ships. See Gall’s Law.

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edweirdmuybridge OP t1_iu1v9ab wrote

Shofu Maru is a bulk carrier that has been retrofitted with a sail to capture wind energy. The sail creates thrust for the ship that would otherwise have to be generated by bunker fuel. The sail is retractable so that it can be lowered in unfavorable wind conditions or at port.

Outfitting bulk carriers with sails is an interesting concept because a lot of bulk cargo (eg iron ore, coal, grain, etc) is not particularly time sensitive. This will allow the ship to make a more circuitous route and take advantage of any favorable wind along its voyage.

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Scalpaldr t1_iu1uwtf wrote

>"The 235-metre-long Shofu Maru will transport coal mainly from Australia, Indonesia, and North America as a dedicated vessel for Japan’s electric services company Tohoku Electric Power."

Well thank goodness the sail is there to reduce "GHG emissions by about 5-8%". What a strike for a greener future!

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edweirdmuybridge OP t1_iu1wuru wrote

From my understanding, they chose coal because it has a relatively uniform density and less propensity to shift around. This is important during the development process because the sail totally changes the handling of the ship and they are trying to understand how to implement these safely. Hence coal. The optics aren’t perfect, but it is best to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

It is also worth noting that this ship is a retrofit and is being sailed by MOL, which is one of the largest shipping companies in the world. If the tests go well, we could see these deployed across much of their fleet so the 5-8% savings would be significant.

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themagicbong t1_iu1z4gd wrote

Plus I thought I read that the theoretical savings can be much higher than 5%-8%, I thought I had read somewhere that it could be as high as 15-20% fuel savings, though that would require perfect circumstances at the high end, and of course there are kinks to work out like you mention with the handling. Either way, 5-8% is pretty substantial.

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Alovebird t1_iu86w9s wrote

15-20% are normally quoted for specially designed ships that are still on paper, this is a retrofit of an existing cargo ship and for that it's a pretty big amount

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Northwindlowlander t1_iu26on8 wrote

It's a big deal tbh. And it's also, importantly, a big deal that doesn't require a huge change in infrastruture and that can be retrofitted to existing ships. This is <exactly> the sort of technical improvement that we need to be chasing tbh.

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SignorJC t1_iu2t9t1 wrote

5% is an absolutely massive improvement.

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Trav3lingman t1_iu2q1e8 wrote

An engine and sailboat combo....was not aware that was a new thing. I mean the Great Western launched in 1838.

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Sir_Osis_of_Liver t1_iu3gjep wrote

There are a number of Magnus effect (rotor or Flettner sail) ships out there like the bulk carrier M/V Afros and the tanker Maersk Pelican.

The Afros was seeing something like a 12-15% energy savings over similar ships.

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starfyredragon t1_iu1zagt wrote

And they just had to use it to transport coal... why?

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Northwindlowlander t1_iu25wjl wrote

Because it's a static, homogenous cargo probably, almost as good as a non-cargo ballast. Better for data collection on the effect of hte sails

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misimiki t1_iu4pag2 wrote

Because in this case it's coals from Newcastle.

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FuturologyBot t1_iu1xehf wrote

The following submission statement was provided by /u/edweirdmuybridge:

Shofu Maru is a bulk carrier that has been retrofitted with a sail to capture wind energy. The sail creates thrust for the ship that would otherwise have to be generated by bunker fuel. The sail is retractable so that it can be lowered in unfavorable wind conditions or at port.

Outfitting bulk carriers with sails is an interesting concept because a lot of bulk cargo (eg iron ore, coal, grain, etc) is not particularly time sensitive. This will allow the ship to make a more circuitous route and take advantage of any favorable wind along its voyage.

Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/yf5ncg/worlds_1st_bulker_powered_by_wind_sails_into_port/iu1v9ab/

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fling_flang t1_iu24x01 wrote

Misleading title. These produce a small percentage of the ship's power.

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ThisIsCody_ t1_iu2npml wrote

"Partially powered by wind sails." Eh, let's just remove a word, it'll be the same.

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InSight89 t1_iu304rt wrote

Aww. Couldn't it have waited a few more months. I'm moving back to Newcastle January 2023. Would have loved to of seen that come in.

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LLCoolDave82 t1_iu5y59a wrote

Honestly not sure. It could be cost. You need to reduce sail/wing size in stronger winds. Having three different sized hard wings is going to be more expensive then one mast with three different sized sails. AC is a little unique in that the last country to win gets to set the rules and some design for the next competition.

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hucktard t1_iubo2ii wrote

“The introduction of the Wind Challenger is expected to reduce greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions by about 5% on a Japan-Australia voyage and by 8% on a Japan-North America West Coast voyage, compared to a conventional vessel of the same type” I wonder if that is even worth it. Like how much do the “sails” cost and how much fossil fuels do they take to produce?

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tenderooskies t1_iu26rt1 wrote

this needs to happen everywhere - these things are mass polluters

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SignorJC t1_iu2te1x wrote

They do generate a lot of pollution, but they are insanely efficient at transporting large amounts of cargo.

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BirdUp69 t1_iu3hgr9 wrote

Why not just a wind turbine direct to an auxiliary electric motor/prop, then the wind direction doesn’t matter

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hoehater t1_iu4hrdy wrote

There are so many things wrong with that idea it’s not even funny, but the short answer is that there would be multiple points of loss in such a system making the entire arrangement incredibly inefficient compared to sails.

Keep in mind that sail used on these big ships aren’t simple pieces of cloth like ships used thousands of years ago, they’re air foils much like the wing of a plane. This means they can exert a LOY more force than you might think depending on wind direction and speed in relation to the ship. Fun fact: modern sail boats can achieve speeds 3-4 times that of the wind under the right conditions.

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BirdUp69 t1_iu5b0en wrote

Would be interesting to see a comparison across all wind conditions. And the installation/maintenance costs would also make for an interesting comparison

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hoehater t1_iu5izhl wrote

Wind turbine are generally far less then 50% efficient at turning the kinetic energy of wind into mechanical energy, most are under 40%. The theoretical maximum is about 59%.

Losses from the transmission and generator are 10-20%.

Losses from power transmission and conditioning would be another 5-10%.

Losses at the electric motor would 3-5%.

The loss of most boat props is between 20-40%.

Then there’s the issue of forces on the ship caused by a wind turbine, by design would be working AGAINST the motion of the ship with anything except a tail wind.

So yeah, it would be totally useless.

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BirdUp69 t1_iu6oppk wrote

What about directly driving the prop, mechanically?

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hoehater t1_iu79zme wrote

With what? A wind turbine? That would be like blowing into your own sail, just like using it to drive an electric motor.

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