Submitted by redingerforcongress t3_ydo0xd in Futurology
NekuraHitokage t1_itvw7gi wrote
Reply to comment by Keeperofthe7keysAf-S in Move over, diesel: Ohio gets ‘first of its kind’ renewable gas station by redingerforcongress
I think our disconnect is that you think I'm arguing against this... I'm not!
I'm arguing that we need to call a kettle black and not waste time on psuedo "clean" solutions while lamenting the timing of this. 20-30 years ago i'd have agreed that this was clean. Now? Hardly.
And the rate of growth is not equivalant to the rate of consumption. That's the problem. We consistantly undergrow and use other wastes to make up that lack of growth. Indeed I suppose it is more of an argument to farming practices, but that's attached to this "solution." Again why I said we'd be in full agreement if they were pulling from a natural methane vent.
Hell, we could easily be growing meat in labs with 0 methane production if we could get over it. Just tell some muscle cells to start growing and cut off a slab whenever you're hungry for some meat. It'll grow back soon enough.
That is the other point. Because of how late this has come, I feel that the resources could have gone elsewhere.
It's a good idea... But feels like too little too late. That was and has been my only point. We're past this kind of can kicking. That's my only point and lament.
Heck, I'll even agree for its use in other fuel applications. Using it in cars doesn't feel like it's the one to go for.
Keeperofthe7keysAf-S t1_itvytqm wrote
>I think our disconnect is that you think I'm arguing against this... I'm not!
>I'm arguing that we need to call a kettle black and not waste time on psuedo "clean" solutions while lamenting the timing of this. 20-30 years ago i'd have agreed that this was clean. Now? Hardly.
These statements are in contradiction, but if it would have been "clean" 30 years ago it's all clean now. Science doesn't change how it works because time passed.
>And the rate of growth is not equivalant to the rate of consumption. That's the problem. We consistantly undergrow and use other wastes to make up that lack of growth.
Again, an argument for addressing unsustainable farming, which I agree with both crop and animal, but not an argument for not utilizing the methane already being released and putting it to use that also reduces it's warming impact.
>Hell, we could easily be growing meat in labs with 0 methane production if we could get over it. Just tell some muscle cells to start growing and cut off a slab whenever you're hungry for some meat.
While our technology is pushing this capability, it's not that simple or cheap, it also still has to source its composites (including carbon) from somewhere and so there isn't much of a distinction here. It's also not just from cows you know?
>That is the other point. Because of how late this has come, I feel that the resources vould have gone elsewhere.
>It's a good idea... But feels like too little too late. That was and has been my only point. We're past this kind of can kicking. That's my only point and lament.
The article is about a station that's new, but capturing methane releases from waste isn't, we've been doing that for awhile, so what resources? the methane that's literally better burned than left alone to be released as is? Every gas plant, every converted truck, every ship, running on this is one not adding carbon to the problem.
NekuraHitokage t1_itw3nwk wrote
You said yourself that "clean" is relative unless I'm conflating conversations. Science indeed does not change. Conditions do. 20 to 30 years ago, we weren't as poor off in all of our greenhouse issues and this kind of planned can-kicking would have been much more beneficial.
And the statements are not. This is not clean and should not waste things actually clean (for the atmosphere) resources should get. That does not mean the product should not exist for uses when fuel is needed. Indeed utilize it... But don't call it "clean" and act like it's the end. That is it.
Having a gas station for vehicles specifically is my argument, I suppose. If using it as a fuel is viable, use it in the use cases that absolutely need combustible fuel. Vehicles don't need that.
I've been speaking of vehicle use the entire time. I've been speaking of our production of methane the whole time. Not about naturally ocurring methane. Not of use cases that are outside of a gas station on the side of the road. That's the biggest over-user of combustible fuels. If methane use in areas where combustion is absolutely needed helps? Cool! Not talking about those.
I'm speaking specifically of this application. A fuel station made for vehicles that combust fuel on the road. You are arguing many other points that do not apply. You even stated that that is what the article is discussing. That is what I am discussing. No more. No less. I am not talking about non-anthrogenic carbon emissions.
But we also need to be looking at the root and trying to stop our own methane emissions entirely. Because those vehicles are the end of a chain that need not exist. That is my entire point. This is kicking the can, not cutting our methane emissions which is what needs to happen. Because there are so many natural sources that our anthrogenic production is overloading the system.
That was... Kinda my point. It's what I was talking about from the start.your "why not utilize it" argument is absolutely beside that point when my entire point was to say "this is just exchanging one gas for another in vehicles... It doesn't address the root... It just kicks the can."
Keeperofthe7keysAf-S t1_itw8gaz wrote
>You said yourself that "clean" is relative unless I'm conflating conversations.
I said it was clean because it's byproducts are water and CO2, these aren't toxic pollutants and CO2 emissions are an issue because of introducing new carbon causing an increased greenhouse effect and ocean acidification. This isn't new carbon though it was, and will regardless, remain a part of the environment.
>Science indeed does not change. Conditions do. 20 to 30 years ago, we weren't as poor off in all of our greenhouse issues and this kind of planned can-kicking would have been much more beneficial.
Right but that doesn't change the science on if it's clean or not and I already addressed how not replacing some fossil fuel usage with this sooner is actually can kicking.
>That does not mean the product should not exist for uses when fuel is needed. Having a gas station for vehicles specifically is my argument, I suppose. If using it as a fuel is viable, use it in the use cases that absolutely need combustible fuel. Vehicles don't need that.
Yeah but it's something we can do right now to add to the effort to reduce fossil fuel usage, not in place of other efforts. It dosen't come with the same limitations that batteries do in certain applications, shipping for instance. Largely I agree though batteries are a clear way to go for land vehicles (at least in most applications) and burning it in a power plant would be more efficient.
>I've been speaking of vehicle use the entire time. I've been speaking of our production of methane the whole time. Not about naturally ocurring methane. Not of use cases that are outside of a gas station on the side of the road. That's the biggest over-user of combustible fuels. If methane use in areas where combustion is absolutely needed helps? Cool! Not talking about those.
Ah well, that would be a difference in what we were talking about, because I was talking about capturing and burning methane from waste that would return to the atmosphere if we did nothing anyways.
I agree vehicles aren't the most efficient use of it with some exception and absolutely we should be getting off fossil sourced natural gas as well as every other fossil fuel as fast as possible.
>But we also need to be looking at the root and trying to stop our own methane emissions entirely. Because those vehicles are the end of a chain that need not exist. That is my entire point. This is kicking the can, not cutting our methane emissions which is what needs to happen. Because there are so many natural sources that our anthrogenic production is overloading the system.
Some disagreement here, that methane would largely exist if more dispersed in nature, this also acts as a or part of cutting those methane emissions by releasing it as the CO2 it came from and would return to anyways. I suppose if we buried and sealed it that would be removing carbon but attempts at that kind of carbon capture have been dubious and as long as we're in a capitalist framework, financially uninspired to pursue in earnest.
>That was... Kinda my point. It's what I was talking about from the start.your "why not utilize it" argument is absolutely beside that point when my entire point was to say "this is just exchanging one gas for another in vehicles."
Yeah I was at no point suggesting we should replace all vehicles with this and that we could scale capturing methane from waste alone for all our energy needs. Regardless of what we could, could not, and should do to reduce the amount of methane in the atmosphere at one time as part of the carbon cycle, we might as well use what's already there especially when doing so just converts it back to what it was and out of a more harmful form faster. Not at all suggesting we try to intentionally make more of it.
NekuraHitokage t1_itwaj8t wrote
Then I think we actually... Mostly agree, and I'm glad we kept up the discussion!
As for that, you're mostly right I think, but that dispersion is important. The greater surface area makes it easier to break down in other ways and keeps it from creating concentrated blankets. A pasture is like sticking a straw in the water and blowing bubbles rather than using a fine aerator. The aerator will get some in solution at least, rather than just jetting gobs of the less dense gas up to the top. Hell, if we had many smaller pastures rather than big industrial ones, that could even help. There are a lot of ways to tackle things that I am in no way qualified to speak on.
My only point really was to say "neat but... Why not just stop producing as much methane? And how can we truly call this 'clean?'
I was in no way trying to say this wasn't beneficial in some way, just that it doesn't address the fact that we're creating too much anthropogenic methane to begin with and that this narrative and the conflation of "clean" with being the perfect solution - especially in marketing - is... Misleading.
Perhaps I am arguing semantics here, but had they even called it "green" rather than "clean" I'd have had less to say. To call it "clean," to most, is to imply that it is the solution, not just an effort. Feels like poorly disguised marketing around something that could otherwise have a decent application with a more transparent understanding.
Keeperofthe7keysAf-S t1_itwcfqs wrote
Yeah we seem to mostly agree, just confusion on the exact thing we were each talking about.
>As for that, you're mostly right I think, but that dispersion is important. The greater surface area makes it easier to break down in other ways and keeps it from creating concentrated blankets. A pasture is like sticking a straw in the water and blowing bubbles rather than using a fine aerator. The aerator will get some in solution at least, rather than just jetting gobs of the less dense grass up to the top. Hell, if we had many smaller pastures rather than big industrial ones, that could even help. There are a lot of ways to tackle things that I am in no way qualified to speak on.
I completely agree with all of that.
And yeah it's also true that fossil fuel companies muddied the word "clean". And nothing is a perfect solution either, we just have several imperfect solutions that can all work together at various scale with a variety of effectiveness and drawbacks.
I'm glad we kept it going too, thanks for the actual discussion instead of the arguing and science denial I've experienced elsewhere on this post. o7
NekuraHitokage t1_itwndjg wrote
Agree on all points eh? Gee, thanks. :p
But hey, none of us are. We're mostly arguing opinion here. Fact-backed, but opinion. I'm glad we found the disconnect! I find that truly is where "argument" comes about. Most folks wanna agree, just not at the cost of their morals and standards. But we're all flexible too, or should be. Nobody wants what they think is worst it's just the ignorant sorts that wanna stick their head in the sand that cause issues.
But yeah, the perfect world it'd be like the water cycle. Trap the methane, convert it to CO2, plant the food crop, trap the CO2, rinse, and repeat. The problem I see here is just people seeing this and people calling it "clean" and going "so... That's it, right?" when we still have reduction efforts and alternative solutions in other fields and all that to consider. That's all. This one effort just feels like a "no duh, why didn't we do this 20 years ago? Now this effort is too late!
I am glad it helps! I just... don't think it helps enough in this field. And I just don't want to see it turned into a marketing ploy as manipulatable as "carbon offsets" and all that. Just raising a flag, not chaining to the tree. Lol.
And of course, I'd never directly deny science. It is because science says that we are in an emergency state that I hold this very opinion! Passionate and a bit of a tight pull on the rope, if you'll forgive further idiom; but, i live on the west coast of the US and breathing smoke is rather unpleasant. I'd like to see reduction in production ASAP. XD
And to you a cheers on that. I appreciate your passion and for presenting fact and arguing through logically with me. If ever either of our logics could be flawed. We're human, after all, that's why we temper it with fact. My view, at least. But I ramble! Have a wonderful one, stranger-friend. o7
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