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DM_me_ur_tacos t1_iruk4q6 wrote

Nuclear isn't even economical anymore compared to modern renewable options.

Moreover, PV technology has not plateaued -- conversion efficiency is still increasing and large scale manufacturing is still ramping up.

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Zncon t1_irupcrg wrote

We cannot only think only of the cheapest ways of making power. It's critical to life and modern society that power stays on, and it's okay to pay a bit more for that.

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CriticalUnit t1_irv6ae7 wrote

> It's critical to life and modern society that power stays on, and it's okay to pay a bit more for that.

Except when it doesn't stay on....

Google France, Belgium, japan etc for examples of the 'reliability'

EDIT: Downvoting doesn't make it any less true.

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Icy-Confidence8018 t1_irvgu4e wrote

What in particular are you talking about? Mind finding me a link to something?

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CriticalUnit t1_irvl6q3 wrote

> What in particular are you talking about?

That nuclear is not necessarily more reliable to "keep the power on".

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20220825-france-prolongs-shutdown-of-nuclear-reactors-over-corrosion-amid-rising-energy-prices

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/two-belgian-nuclear-reactors-fail-in-a-week/

https://www.ft.com/content/bce753b9-2b82-4895-a651-01ce91df7627

What exactly are you trying to say? We should all pay more for nuclear even though it obviously also has reliability issues? What are we paying extra for exactly?

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LazyLizzy t1_irw46nr wrote

All these stories aren't pointing at nuclear being unreliable, all of these articles have issues that could also pop up in cheaper power productions as well.

The french one they discovered corrosion and crackign in critical cooling pipes that seems to have been a manufacturing defect. So they shut down similar reactors for inspection to be safe.

The one in Belgium had a short circuit in a critical component, again something that can easily happen with other productions of power.

To me it seems you hand picked these stories because they forwarded your goal, but you conveniently left out WHY these places were shut down hoping someone wouldn't actually read them. Coal and Natural gas plants are cheap to run (or used to be anyway) and they had issues all the time that required down time. It's just unfortunate that in these cases the faults that occurred are in critical systems so the whole reactor needed to be shut down until it can be fixed.

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CriticalUnit t1_irzqsqi wrote

> all of these articles have issues that could also pop up in cheaper power productions as well.

That's exactly the point. Nuclear also has these same issues and isn't really more reliable than cheaper power production.

So why would we pay more and wait longer to build it?

>All these stories aren't pointing at nuclear being unreliable,

Well that long list of nuclear plants in those links that are shut down currently can't be relied on to produce power at the moment. Call it what you will...

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LazyLizzy t1_is0i6em wrote

Except the point of nuclear is to replace coal and gas power plants with something much greener to help keep a strong stable power in the transmission lines.

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CriticalUnit t1_is0sjdz wrote

Except the point of renewables is to replace coal and gas power plants with something much greener to help keep a strong stable power in the transmission lines.

Maybe you could list the ways you think new nuclear can do any of that better?

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LazyLizzy t1_is1165j wrote

Thorium reactors and newer designs are incredibly efficient. On top of that nuclear waste isn't that big of a deal, there's plenty of places to keep it, but the biggest hurdle is people. Lot of people have boogeyman thoughst about anything nuclear thanks to Oil and Gas companies lobbying against it back in the 80's and 90's. I love renewables, I'm ready for them, however can they handle peak loads? Can they keep a stable output 24/7? We have to store excess power to help during peak loads or if something were to occur, what technoligies exist that's cost efficient and as good or better than just running a few nuclear plants in a region? Electrcity transmission for a country is complex and daunting and there's more to it than just "Plop some more turbines and solar panels".

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CriticalUnit t1_is4l8j7 wrote

> Thorium reactors and newer designs are incredibly efficient

not where is counts. They aren't economically efficient (Expensive)

>I love renewables, I'm ready for them, however can they handle peak loads?

when enough are deployed, absolutley. There are plenty of countries where they already do.

>Can they keep a stable output 24/7?

Again, yes they can. Have a google of Costa Rica or Portugal.

>We have to store excess power to help during peak loads

Sure, we have to do that now too. Nuclear also requires you to o store excess power to help during peak loads because you can't economically operate them in a flexible manner.

>what technoligies exist that's cost efficient and as good or better than just running a few nuclear plants in a region?

Literally all of them. Have a look at some actual recent numbers. Even Residential Solar is now the same price as nuclear.

>Electrcity transmission for a country is complex and daunting and there's more to it than just "Plop some more turbines and solar panels".

Sure, that's a nice red herring. Let me spice it up:

Electricity transmission for a country is complex and daunting and there's more to it than just "Plop in some more nuclear plants".

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Rhonin- t1_irv3l4r wrote

Unless we can solve the renewable energy storage problem, reliable and constant energy sources like nuclear will keep being a necessity in the energy mix.

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Able-Emotion4416 t1_irx1t2l wrote

If we were able to cooperate globally, we would already have an international super grid (loss of only about 1 to 5 percent energy per 1000 km(. And we would already have had huge solar panel parks in China's Gobi desert, in Australia, in India's desert, in the Sahara desert, and n the deserts of the Americas, and connecting them all. So that whenever it's night time in a region, that region imports solar power from regions that are exposed to the sun. Such a super grid would also allow to export excess energy from other renewables, and import when there's, for example, less wind.

Only about 100k km^2 of solar panels are enough to meet today's global demand. But we need two or three times more so they can be placed strategically over the world, and always be producing enough solar energy. Anyway, those 100k km square are about 1 percent of the Sahara Desert, and about 5 to 10 percent of the Great North American Desert). Also, keep in mind that the world would also supply wind, tidal, hydro and geothermal energy, among many others. So we don't even need 100k km square of panels...

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jdthehuman16 t1_irup16j wrote

Would you know where I could read more about this?

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DM_me_ur_tacos t1_irurd3v wrote

Here is a widely used energy cost comparison

And here is NREL's chart of PV efficiencies

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bmac251 t1_irwrm9d wrote

While I’m happy to see renewables becoming increasingly cost effective year over year I take a bunch of issue with this commonly cited Lazard study.

First, it doesn’t address one of the biggest downsides of solar and wind: the downtime of energy generation. Nuclear runs 24/7 (assuming rotational maintenance scheduling). Renewables might offer alternatives during their peak generation times but with battery technology currently where it is, storing the residual energy for use during non generating times is difficult. Not to mention how this would require a change to the electrical grid (in USA, can’t speak to Europe).

Second, the subsidies that Lazard is “discounting” is for subsidies in electricity generation. They do not include heavy subsidies given to solar panel production. This is a bigger issue than most people realize because China is currently the biggest producer of solar panels and they are notorious for “dumping” (subsidizing panel production to the point where they are effectively selling it at a loss) which makes them cost competitive. Seeing as current solar panels (and wind turbines, though the turbines to my knowledge don’t have this dumping problem) have a lifespan that is a fraction of nuclear plants, this effect is magnified each time new panels are purchased.

Third, solar panels production is dirty. The utility scale, cost-effective version of solar panels cited in this study are almost exclusively made in China. With coal plants generating most of the energy to make them. To be fair this could also be said for materials used to make nuclear plants. However, the minerals used to make many solar panels (and more specifically, the batteries they need to store energy) are typically sourced from third world countries (eg: DRC) with poor track records on human rights. Often these minerals are called “conflict minerals” (similar to “blood diamonds”) for this reason. To be fair, the Congo (both countries) also sits on some of the largest known uranium deposits in the world. If nuclear were to be scaled to the point solar has been promoted to, it is reasonable to assume that the uranium would be sourced in a similarly unethical manner. This would necessitate recycling of spent nuclear rods, which is currently only done in France to my knowledge, and this would increase costs to generate nuclear energy.

Fourth, current nuclear plants can exist for 80 years. Admittedly I didn’t see how they accounted for this in the study so perhaps I’m ignorant here but often this isn’t accounted for when comparing the cost of a new nuclear plant and the energy it would generate versus a solar/wind alternative that would generate similar levels of energy.

Ultimately, I’m all for green energy. But I think it’s important to read through these studies diligently and do your own research to understand externalities that each source of energy has. The future should be a combination of solar, wind AND nuclear.

Edit: I am biased in favor of nuclear

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DM_me_ur_tacos t1_irx8uli wrote

These are very reasonable points of contention.

It would indeed be interesting to include the cost of sufficient battery storage with PV/wind so that they can deliver closer to base load. But fast forward a decade and I suspect that the combination of variable pricing (market mechanism woo!) and people owning beefy EV batteries will shape demand to match variations in supply. Some utility scale smoothing will also help.

My impression is that the lackluster grid infrastructure and PV manufacturing in the US are strategic blunders that should and will be remedied. Even if utility power generation weren't to change, the transition to EVs and proliferation of residential solar are going to necessitate a modern grid. In my opinion, invoking the grid as a reason to hold back on renewables is like saying that cars aren't useful because we can't be bothered to pave our roads, so let's stick with horse buggies.

Also, something that I suspect isn't in the lazard study is that PV panels are increasingly recyclable. This is in big contrast to fuel supplies from a shady sources that are single use (uranium, petro). The scarce materials in PVs are catalysts that can and should be recovered and reused.

Edit: I'm biased towards renewables, but not a nuclear alarmist

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bmac251 t1_irxbg2u wrote

Thanks for your insightful and level headed response. Like I said, I think the future is brighter with a combination of the renewables you prefer and nuclear I prefer. We can both agree fossil fuels should be phased out.

I’m inclined to agree with you about the future of battery storage will fundamentally change how renewables are marketed across the country and world. I only see their adoption increasing (and even more so as battery technology develops).

My point to the grid, and even more so US PV manufacturing, wasn’t meant to imply we shouldn’t be changing to these forms of energy. We will need a more modern grid one way or the other and there’s no doubt solar and wind will become bigger and bigger parts of this. We shouldn’t discount them now because of how things are. Rather, the point I was trying to make was that many studies I see that portray wind and solar as the future because of their “green-ness” or “cost competitiveness” with other forms of energy aren’t really apples to apples comparisons. I think this is usually due to the fact that accounting for all the little factors that go into building an entire nations energy supply is - unsurprisingly - a hugely difficult undertaking (I also try not to infer bad motives on people when a lack of understanding could also explain the result). My gripe is that I often see solar and wind studies like the one you listed used to promote policy when the study isn’t showing many of the important downsides. Oil and gas do the same thing when they always ignore favorable subsidies and accounting policies they use so as to skew their cost effectiveness. Again, I’m biased here, but I don’t see that same benefit of the doubt given to nuclear and often it seems like that’s due to some pathological fear of nuclear.

As for recycling PV, this is huge! I’m very happy to see this and I want to read up on it. I don’t think many people understand this is possible with solar or nuclear for that matter but I hope to spread the word on this.

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FrozenIceman t1_irxyi4y wrote

You don't think Solar Panels and Lithium come from Shady sources in China?

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DM_me_ur_tacos t1_iry74xz wrote

Like I said, it was a strategic blunder to allow China to get the headstart on PV manufacturing. But if their panels are cost effective it's not like energy investors are going to abort projects because they are Chinese.

In terms if lithium, some quick googling suggests that Chile and Australia have reserves and production that dwarf China's. So while I wouldn't want to depend entirely on Chinese lithium, that doesn't seem to be a problem or a reason to abandon renewables

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FrozenIceman t1_iry7l53 wrote

I am not suggesting abandoning renewables.

I am suggesting that sketchy or immoral production chains are so common to every day life that it shouldn't even be considered.

But if you are considering changing production chains, it is easy enough to reopen Uranium mines around the globe or even more fun separate the Uranium in Desalination plants (It is like 300 tons of Uranium can be separated per year from our existing desalination plans).

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routerg0d t1_irwuvn6 wrote

What happens to the area around a nuclear plant when it melts down vs what happens to a wind turbine that falls over? The risk/reward is not worth it period. Quit pretending that there’s zero ecological cost to nuclear they also use rare earth elements and carbon intensive construction methods. You also never seem to account for ten thousand years of storage costs of the material.

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bmac251 t1_irx0djn wrote

What nuclear reactors are you talking about, exactly? Current generation nuclear reactors are practically impossible to melt down. Heck, even the three mile island and Fukushima reactors couldn’t melt down via a positive feedback loop like Chernobyl did. But even if you don’t buy that, I wouldn’t advocate for building nuclear reactors along a massive fault line or any other area prone to extreme natural disasters. Those seem like perfect places for wind/solar/geothermal/etc.

As for the rare earth metals: sure nuclear uses them too. But the scale is not even comparable. Every single solar panel uses them, whereas every nuclear reactor also uses other REMs. The difference? Nuclear is orders of magnitude more energy dense. The need for as many REMs to produce comparable energy at scale is not even close. Nobody is, or should, claim that any energy source is 100% clean and free of external costs. But each one needs to be compared based on its comparative merits and costs. There isn’t a one size fits all policy to meeting global energy needs. Yet for whatever reason, the solar and wind proponents seem to think that’s all we need.

And finally, for storage. Currently we throw the spent nuclear waste into a mine built kilometers underground below a mountain. There is literally no human health risk related to this storage solution. Each American would require roughly one soda cans worth of nuclear fuel to power their entire lifetimes worth of energy. To put that into perspective that’s a couple fully filled football fields worth of spent fuel we would need for all of America to store which is currently feasible with existing mines we have. We could even take the entire planets waste, store it in this way, and still barely make a dent in our storage potential for this waste. Or we can recycle most of it, using the process the French employ.

I’m not pretending anything. I try to live in reality and not convince myself that a bunch of windmills and solar panels will solve an increasingly electrified worlds problems.

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FrozenIceman t1_irxyaxe wrote

This isn't true at all. In Europe Nuclear is about the same price per KWH as industrial solar (I.E. Solar farms, the roof top ones are far less efficient).

https://www.iea.org/reports/projected-costs-of-generating-electricity-2020

On top of that the West put in lots of intentional blockers for Nuclear Development to slow its progress (and in turn raise prices). Places like India and China that are actively producing 20+ Nuclear reactors at the same time are actually helped by their government rather than slowed down which would in turn reduce cost even further.

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[deleted] t1_irusv92 wrote

This was hilarious. PV has not plateaued because of…. Investment? Research? Top institutions studying it? Lol you’re comparing technology made in 50s to stuff 70 years later.

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DM_me_ur_tacos t1_iruulh8 wrote

It's hard to understand what you mean...

But you can go read the lazard reports, linked in other comments, to see the cost comparison.

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[deleted] t1_iruupf9 wrote

I’ve well aware. I’m happy technology from 2020 can beat reactors designed in the 50s, otherwise, we’d be fuck. You do understand solar has 20-50x the research investment, right?

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Aether_Breeze t1_irvgxnz wrote

It doesn't matter the reason why one is better but surely using the better option still makes sense? Of course we should be building nuclear as well because it gives a stable base production for the grid.

If you are saying nuclear could be better so we should not build solar until we have researched better nuclear...then we should wait for fusion or maybe a Dyson sphere.

Honestly I don't even think we have the time to care, maybe we shouldn't be covering these areas with panels but at this point we have left it so long we just need to start doing something.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

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gullible_guy t1_irusdlo wrote

Yes...yes it is. The problem is "renewable" are so subsidized its insane.

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crbatey22 t1_iruyaj1 wrote

Fossil fuel subsidies in the corner looking nervously at your comment!

2019 fossil fuel subsidies = $500 billion

2019 renewable energy subsidies = $177 billion

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Happyhotel t1_irv2wl1 wrote

Ok, but now lets get those stats in dollars/amount of energy generated.

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crbatey22 t1_irvrvui wrote

The global energy spread from 2019 was:

Fossil fuel = 63.3% Nuclear = 26.3% Renewables = 10.4%

Based on the total global energy subsidies in 2019 ,

Renewables received 26% of total subsidies and generated 10.4% of global energy. A return of 0.4%

Fossil fuels received 73% of total subsidies and generated 63.3% of global energy. A return of 0.87%

So for 2019, investment in fossil fuels paid for almost twice as much energy generation when compared to renewables.

What is also interesting to look at however, is the rate of adoption of renewables. The fastest adopter of renewables by far is china, who outpace the USA almost 3 to 1. So while china is opening new coal plants to keep their production going in the short term, they are investing heavily in renewables for the long term.

2021 renewable energy spread for different countries

China 44% renewable, 2.4% nuclear 46% total

Europe 37% renewable, 26% nuclear 63% total

USA 20.1% renewable, 18% nuclear 38% total.

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gullible_guy t1_irw6u0q wrote

Once again, a subsidy is not a tax break.

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crbatey22 t1_irws2ov wrote

I’m not sure I understood your comment completely.

Both fossil fuels and renewables are subsidized to a greater or lesser degree depending on location.

These subsidies can be direct payment, or in the form of tax breaks, or indirect incentives based on land usage.

In this situation, my feeling is that, as subsidies are happening for all energy production, it would be better to feed the majority of these subsidies into renewables in order to hasten the transition.

The current energy crisis in Europe really highlights why regions should transition to an energy independent model, just from a geopolitical perspective. Being beholden to Russian gas has not made for an easy winter here. Considering the geography of Europe, a mix of solar, hydro, wind, geothermal and nuclear is would certainly meet all of our energy needs if implemented correctly. The only thing stopping this was financial and political will. With the current situation, this will has finally come, and it is likely the transition will be rapid

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gullible_guy t1_iryut8y wrote

Tax break is not a subsidy.

Not taking peoples money is not the same as taking money from someone and giving it to others.

RE Europe: Trump LITERALLY told them not to do what they did.

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crbatey22 t1_irzkxmm wrote

Understood. It’s my fault for not being clear in my language.

‘Receiving subsidies’ does require the subject in question to be given money, or another object of recompense.

Both fossil fuel production and renewable production receive subsidies.

‘Being subsidized’ is a catch all term to indicate a subject is supported in their actions, not only through direct capital, but also through reduction in CAPEX via tax breaks, advantageous loan terms, cheap land usage rates etc…

Both fossil fuel and renewables are being subsidized in this manner.

Concerning Trump. If he did say it, He was right to tell Europe (and let’s be clear here, in this case it is mostly German industry that is dependent on this) not to hitch their wagon to Russian oil.

But it is a comment that is two decades out of date. German industrialist have been in close ties with Russia since the 90s. Maybe Clinton have the same advice?

Again. The whole point is that fossil fuels, renewables, and most major industries to a greater or lesser degree, are subsidized in one fashion or another.

At the moment, fossil fuels tend to receive vast more subsidization when compared to renewables, and by virtue of them being a long established technology, have received huge amounts of cumulative subsidization.

The fact that renewables are now receiving significant subsidized support, even if the $ to KWh is lower than for fossil fuels, is still a good thing in my opinion. Renewable sources, particularly wind and solar, are a relatively new tech and are making annual leaps in efficiency and cost per KWh.

Offshore wind is a huge EU industry, which is now able to supply almost all of some EU countries energy needs (Denmark). In addition it creates manufacturing jobs, installation jobs, jobs for shipping and doc workers, and it is helping to transition fishing workers to a more sustainable model.

Right now for cheap solar, globally china is king of production. Here is where I see a familiar problem looming. Having one country produce the majority of solar capacity, starts to look familiar to oil and gas monopolies (OPEC). It could certainly use some diversity.

The negatives of all this (aside from lack of baseline capacity without investment in Nuclear energy, not a problem for me in France) is that any energy production requiers a degree of environmental damage and CO2 production. Wind turbines are heavy concrete, copper and plastic users. Particularly off shore. Solar panels are less problematic as they are almost entirely silicone from sand to make the glass. They do use rare earth minerals which can be destructive to mine and politically difficult depending on where they are. However, spent solar panel recycling has already started at small scale.

The key takeaway is that, as a species, we have to get off the oil and gas eventually. For several reasons.

  1. It produces CO2 which will change the climate. Probably creating mass migration from central latitudes and a socioeconomic crisis.
  2. It is inherently polluting. Aside from CO2, burning fossil fuels creates atmospheric Polly that harms health and stresses medical infrastructure.
  3. It’s a finite resource that will not be created again and cannot be recycled. It will run out. Maybe not for us. But for our children. Or children’s children.
  4. Local energy independence. Being dependent on hostile neighbors to keep the lights on is inherently bad.
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gullible_guy t1_is0zuyn wrote

Giving money to a company to support its product and bring down costs, is not the same as not taking money from that company. PERIOD.

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crbatey22 t1_is1g0mo wrote

Fine. Then call the tax break side of things ‘incentives’. It really doesn’t make a difference and is just semantics.

Both fossil fuel providers and renewable providers receive both ‘subsidies’ and ‘incentives’.

Do you not think that, knowing what we know now, and considering the global situation, those ‘incentives’ and ‘subsidies’ should go to renewables (and in my opinion, nuclear) rather than fossil fuels?

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gullible_guy t1_is1hqpo wrote

No, it isn't just "semantics"
What "global situation"?

Again, not taxing someone, is not the same as taking tax dollars from other people and giving them to another person.

I do agree we should be pushing Nuclear tech, its the only 100% thing that both sides should agree on as its the cleanest and safest form of energy we have right now.

Renewables are not real yet. Tech is getting closer, but i drive though somerset daily, and 50% of the days the shit ain't even spinning.

"renewables" are not cleaner when you look at the overall contribution to negative environmental impacts.

Its honestly just a way to funnel money into peoples pockets.

aka Solyndra.(google it you might be too young)

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crbatey22 t1_is1ouwm wrote

I was not aware of Solyndra, but probably because it was a US firm. I am in France. Also I’m 37?!

The global situation I’m talking about is the effect that human CO2 emissions are having on the climate, alongside the unstable geopolitical situation faced by many countries being beholden to the Petrodollar and the whims of OPEC, or relying on mafias masquerading as national gouvernements (aka Russia) for your energy supply.

With regards to renewables not being ready. Quite honestly that’s just incorrect. Countries that have invested heavily in offshore wind, solar and hydro are regularly able to cover all of their energy needs using only renewables.

Where renewables are lacking is in energy storage. But this is a well known problem, hence the need for nuclear to bridge the gaps.

Your comment concerning wind turbines not turning is really indicative of your lack of knowledge of energy grids. When turbines are not turning, generally it is because there is a lack of energy demand in an area that has coal or gas plants as their main source of power. These types of plants cannot be shut down and restarted quickly to deal with fluctuations in demand, so the wind turbines get shut off in their place.

Your comment about CO2 emissions in construction is correct. Particularly for offshore wind, which uses around 10 times more concrete than a coal plant to construct. But the efficiency and output of wind turbines in particular are increasing year on year, resulting in a shorter and shorter CO2 payback/break even period. Where’s coal/gas plants only have increasing emissions throughout their life, and are even worse when mining and materials transport for the life of the plant is accounted for.

Surprisingly, nuclear plants have the lowest concrete usage on average for new construction, and their only ongoing CO2 emissions are due to transport of materials, which is minuscule.

The problem French nuclear plants increasingly face at the moment (aside from maintenance worker strikes and unexpected shutdowns due to inspection findings) is cooling issues during summer months. We have had record summer heat waves year on year for the past decade, resulting in severe drought and hotter rivers. The cooling capacity of the rivers that cool the plants is getting closer and closer to the delta limit every year.

Your comment about ‘both sides’ getting behind nuclear is specifically a US issue. EU politics is far less binary.

Saying all of this. If you want to criticize subsidies. Criticize those fed to the automotive industry. In 2008 it was bailouts for US car manufacturers who were fiscally irresponsible. Following that, it was the extent the German government propped up VW/Audi before/during/after the emission scandale. Now it’s the push for electric cars, financed by subsidies and tax incentives. Take all of this money. Invest it in public transport infrastructure.

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LarryGumball t1_irutd8r wrote

I like nuclear, but let's be clear it too is also subsidized, pretty much any energy generation is heavily subsidized. Renewable energy is worth focusing on, it's just they are willing to ignore nuclear benefits while reopening coal and oil plants to shut down nuclear. That boggles me, Renewable is cheaper long run, but nuclear is better than the others till we have a good renewable way to store energy.

​

For the person who down-voted me. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=41534 this is ofc only for the USA, but I have another for Japan and sure I can find others. All Energy is subsidized. it's just by how much.

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Tacky-Terangreal t1_irux3pk wrote

And it has to be supported by natural gas lmfao

This is why the environmentalist movement is a joke. A real solution is staring us all in the face but they want to indulge their stupid fantasies. I saw a guy in this thread saying that putting solar panels on every roof in Europe wouldn’t be enough and we should build more solar panels 🤦‍♀️

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