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Koda_20 t1_iqoe9w1 wrote

Reply to comment by [deleted] in The US's National Renewable Energy Laboratory wants to make decentralized microgrids as simple to set up and operate as diesel generators, and has created a prototype that is much simpler than existing microgrid technology. by lughnasadh

Batteries are crazy bad for environment from mining to fabricating

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MildlyInfuria8ing t1_iqogotj wrote

That ship is starting to sail. Advances have shown we can use much more environment friendly materials, and we can recycle many existing batteries. We can take the dirty recycled batteries and use the recovered materials to build cleaner and easier to recycle versions.

And to be frank, it's not like all the mining for coal, fracking, oil refining, etc are any more cleaner. If we can invest in 'not perfect' forms of energy storage to transition away from an energy system that is environmentally damaging from start to finish, we can move towards dramatically less damaging energy production.

It's not that we should be okay lithium ion is dirty during production and recycling, it's that we need to weight the pros and cons of staying the course on an environmentally damaging fossil fuel system, or working towards a system that in the LONG RUN will be much cleaner in most aspects.

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99D9 t1_iqoo4n4 wrote

Maybe a solution needs to be found in the context of cleaner mining? What makes mining so dirty (apart from outputs or side effects of the machines used to mine)?

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MildlyInfuria8ing t1_iqopjwh wrote

Mining is only a piece of the puzzle, but it is dirty for all industries, and many industries employ or buy from mines with questionable practices and human rights records. In many cases, the issue is that the materials and thus the mines are in undeveloped countries, or countries that are looking for money over treating their populace properly. Think/research stuff like blood diamonds.

What makes these mines dirty is the lack of regulation, so companies are free to run it as dangerously and cheaply as possible at the expense of environmental impacts and human suffering. These mines, usually in countries with questionable to terrible records, are not controlled by the developed countries who need those resources. An example is if America told China to clean up it's mining. China would laugh at America, who has no jurisdiction or path for reprisal, and continue to do as it pleased. There simply is no reasonable way to force a mine in another country to clean up.

That's why it is insanely important to research and develop recycling, and to enact incentives for it at the government level. Since we cannot clean up the mining in other countries, and we cannot legally, or reasonably force a company in our own country to source from more expensive but cleaner sources, we need to try a different approach. If you can recover 85% of rare materials from existing batteries/items inside our country, that is 85% less you need to source from the terrible mine in the Congo. The trick is incentivizing companies to use the recycled materials, or to develop processes to make the recycling processes cheaper and that way you can sell the recycled materials for competitive prices. Look up how incentivizing recycling of Lead Acid batteries got us to something like 97% recycle rate.

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MilkshakeBoy78 t1_iqoxw5e wrote

Is mining for battery material worse than mining for natural gas, oil, etc.?

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MildlyInfuria8ing t1_iqp08sr wrote

You'll need to specify what you mean by 'worse'. There is CONSIDERABLY more mining and extraction of fossil fuels across the entire globe, both in developed and undeveloped countries. This leads to considerably more emissions and environmental damage than rare earth materials. There is also all the pipeline leaks, ocean platform leaks, etc to weigh in.

I am also led to believe that rare earth material mining is more polluting on an individual mining/operation scale, but because there is farrrrrr less of these mines in operation, it does considerably less global damage. It does more damage locally than globally.

This is why, depending on which side of the fence you are on, there are ways to twist a discussion to make one side sound so much better than the other. Ultimately, both have negative impacts on environment and in many cases the employees and communities they exist in or near. Recycling can be an answer to try and prevent the impacts of either scenario above. We just need the infrastructure and political willpower to make it happen.

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intellifone t1_iqp1zp4 wrote

Mining isnt that dirty. I mean you’re digging big holes in the ground. But you fill it back up (more complicated than that). It’s refining that is dirty. All those toxic pits are from refining, not mining.

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anusthrasher96 t1_iqoptoh wrote

All processes involved require energy, which is almost always fossil fuels

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urmomaisjabbathehutt t1_iqom41d wrote

How bad, are they worse than uranium from mining to fabrication? are they worse than fracking or oil extraction? are they worse than coal?

perhaps we shall cut every tree for our heating needs and forget about the CO2 released to the athmosphere

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Koda_20 t1_iqoqrqb wrote

Far worse than both of those when you consider the amounts needed and that doesn't seem like it's gonna change for a while.

You don't need much uranium (of thorium if you wanna be 2022) for the amount of energy you get.

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urmomaisjabbathehutt t1_iqoyngy wrote

Actually you are wrong as many studies on the environmental footprint of different forms of energy show, on top of it modern batteries are largely recyclable

and thorium in 2022 means nothing because the plants were expected by 2070 , i.e India third phase (as in thorium power plants) and i mention india because they were the ones pushing for thorium since they have some of the largest deposits in the world

as it happens phase one wss eventually completed, phase two has been plaged by cost overrums and delays and as per now mostly paralized, at this point has been a renewed push for nuclear generation but if im correct most are conventional so

and no, uranium power plants using thourium blankets and test runs do not count as commercial thorium plants

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Minister_for_Magic t1_iqpdos7 wrote

Hilarious that people who don't give a single fuck about mining the metals needed for solar panels, sand for construction, or fucking tar sands for oil suddenly care about the environmental impact of batteries.

Methinks this is not an honest line of argument for these people

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Koda_20 t1_iqpdtjb wrote

I do give fucks about those things.

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