Submitted by Mickeymousse1 t3_11stqn6 in Futurology
Doktor_Wunderbar t1_jcffbhw wrote
Fortunately, in the short term, this goal is inseparable from the goal of survival. It will be a very, very long time before we have the knowledge to even think about preventing heat death, so we've got to stay alive long enough for that knowledge to accumulate. And convincing people to survive is going to be an easier sell - although recent years have taught us that some people will resist even that.
Mickeymousse1 OP t1_jcfftvi wrote
That also right. My point is exactly that. We need to survive for the simple reason os preventing life from disappearing. It's a human responsibility
strvgglecity t1_jcg1vhd wrote
That's nonsense lol. It's stating that the purpose of life is to live, which is like saying the purpose of consuming water is to obtain liquid. It's different words saying the exact same thing, a fully circular statement.
To prove the point, what would then be the purpose of life after the universe does die/disappear?
Mickeymousse1 OP t1_jcg3uza wrote
First there wouldn't be any life
And second the same
Biologically the purpose of life is to spread genes
Metaphysically there is no clear and cut reasoning, but that also helps make this point. The reason for life is making life the best it can be and to perpetuate It, that is a philosophical point and so Is my thesis
strvgglecity t1_jcg6mno wrote
The role of life is to spread genes. There is no purpose. It is a random occurrence.
Mickeymousse1 OP t1_jcgh4aj wrote
Yes It is, does that make it any less amazing?
Not It doesn't, it makes it balls sucking amazing
Hope you can see it some day
Just because we are not doing the best we can with it right now does not mean we can't change It.
strvgglecity t1_jcgmvz7 wrote
Dude nobody is arguing we can't do better. I am telling you flat out for a fact there is no value in thinking of events billions of years in the future, and especially not to base decisions today on what might happen someday in the far future. It's utter nonsense.
Mickeymousse1 OP t1_jch3h8f wrote
It's the other way around.
I'm justifying being a good person and doing good because It might eventually lead to avoiding the heat death of the universe
strvgglecity t1_jchglm7 wrote
Lol ok. You do you. It's like saying you wear shoes today because 10 billion years from now someone on the other side of the universe will be hungry.
Mickeymousse1 OP t1_jchlftg wrote
It's as arbitrary as any religion but more logical.
It that Is exactly my point, it's a philosophy not an exact ultimate reason
Chemical_Ad_5520 t1_jchc5my wrote
Just because billions of years is a long time compared to our lifespans doesn't mean these possibilities are irrelevant. You could argue that there's no objective meaning about it, but the same is true about all the decisions you make which affect the present too. Most people don't think very deeply about where humanity, life, intelligence, and the universe are headed, but some people do feel that these long-term outcomes have subjective meaning to them, the same way your choice to eat, work, and enjoy Reddit have some sort of subjective meaning for you.
I care about the fate of humanity, life, intelligence, and the universe, but some people just aren't interested in that. It doesn't make one set of interests right or wrong, it's just a matter of what people are trying to leave behind.
Many people would say that billions of years is too much time for what we do now to have a lasting effect, but we're actually living in a very dynamic and impactful time, which very reasonably could have bearing over the nature of the death of the universe. Entropic forces in the universe seem to be opposed in some ways by the organizing forces of life and intelligence. It's possible that the continued technological advancement of our society makes the difference between the universe eventually destroying itself or finding a sustainable equilibrium. So much is at stake right now, and people who look far into the future as part of their process to try to help control humanity's progress towards positive outcomes are the ones who are best equipped to keep technology and society from going off the rails. Certain technological, political, and social developments in this century could determine the fate of the universe.
strvgglecity t1_jchfeju wrote
The hubris here is astounding. The universe is unaffected.
Chemical_Ad_5520 t1_jchv9ql wrote
I'm just explaining that the distant future can be affected by current events, and that some people do place value on those future outcomes. You're the one claiming that this is absolutely untrue and impossible. That sounds like a better example of hubris than my analysis is.
I get that your message is that you'd prefer to focus on nearer-term outcomes, and that's valid, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to talk about how distant futures could be affected by near-term developments.
Most of what you're doing here is just expressing your emotions, hyperbolically claiming absolutes and adding nothing to an actual analysis of this topic. I'm being literal and a little more specific about the content of this topic, which I think is a better contribution than what you've made here.
strvgglecity t1_jcjbmwu wrote
I am saying that talking about a billion years from now is not only useless for planning purposes, but actually meaningless as an exercise, because a trillion things will happen that you could never have conceived of. If some remnant of humanity exists in some form that far in the future, who's to say it still exists in 3 dimensions? Or experiences time? Or cannot travel to other universes? Yes, I'm confident that saying you want to save the universe from a death that may not occur for a trillion years is the pinnacle of hubris.
Chemical_Ad_5520 t1_jckgs4o wrote
What we do with technology in this century can determine whether life gets off this planet and survives the death of the solar system. If earth life can colonize space, then the organizing forces of life and intelligence may persist until entropy is defeated.
For people who are interested in preserving life in the universe for extremely long periods of time, these topics are interesting to think about because of how many future events hinge on the present - the fate of the only life we know depends so much on what we do today, it's awesome in a literal way.
I'm not saying that we can definitely accomplish anything particular, I'm saying that a lot is possible if life and intelligence continue to exist, possibly including extending the lifespan of the universe. Thus some people feel it's important to do what it takes to preserve life.
I'd be happy to debate this in more depth if you'd be willing to provide an argument grounded in evidence and logic. You just keep saying "it's too much time for anything to make a difference." Based on what? Give me a real argument to respond to.
strvgglecity t1_jckw3u7 wrote
Not a single word of this has meaning. I am telling you flat out it is impossible to predict that far in the future. All the things you dream of could be the exact reasons for our extinction.
Chemical_Ad_5520 t1_jcra7g7 wrote
Since you're not giving me any substantial reasoning to argue against, I'll just elaborate about my position. I'm not claiming any absolutes, but I do think that what we do now can affect the probabilities of one or another long term outcomes.
I basically feel like a dead universe is less interesting than one with life in it, because a dead universe is going to decay and destroy itself relatively predictively, but a universe with intelligent life existing for long periods of time is more dynamic and might do some pretty interesting things. There's no apparent objective meaning about the two possibilities, it's just my opinion that the dynamic nature of intelligent life is more interesting.
In light of this, I prefer that human life survives and figures out how to colonize space without destroying itself, because that would increase the potential longevity of earth life in the universe, which is the only life we have reasonable evidence of. If we can achieve space colonization - a near-term goal compared to our timeline of the lifespan of the universe - then the probability of earth life/intelligence organizing the universe such that the nature of its demise is affected goes from zero to potentially non-zero. You don't know that there is definitely no way for this to happen, except that it's obvious that life or intelligence can't change the universe if it doesn't exist. Thus if we colonize space, we are creating the possibility of outliving the solar system, which allows for some potentiality to affect the universe at extremely long time scales.
On the topic of determining what the best moves to prevent our extinction in this century are, I'd say that being very careful and wary of ethics in the development of AGI, nanorobotics, and genetic engineering are probably most important. Mitigation of ecological damage feels like it'd be next, then probably climate change, then probably we need cheaper desalination to curb conflict as we get past the middle of the century, and hopefully the risk of all-out nuclear war doesn't get too high. It would be nice to have a backup human colony in case something goes really wrong on earth during this dangerous period of technological development, but not at significant expense to these priorities. But on that note, society is nowhere close to optimally addressing humanity's risks and desires. Whether or not you think space colonization is worth any of our resources or not seems secondary to the ridiculous waste and inefficiency of the economy in general, which begs the question "how would you actually want to try to change things?"
It's already hard to see how we can even get future technologies developed with equity in mind, I really can't see how someone could expect it's possible to get all powerful people to forever abstain from creating incredibly powerful technologies, short of killing everyone, which defeats the purpose. So we have to deal with these risks and challenges, and we don't seem to have the option of doing it in an optimal fashion, so it's best to focus on what can actually be done to improve the future. Contributing to certain social movements or technological developments is the bulk of people's options for how to make impactful contributions. Working to make the development of technologies safe and their implementation ethical, and mitigating risks to communities and civilization at large are good ways to try to contribute in my opinion. If space colonization is something you can find a way to contribute to, I see that as being positive.
FredR23 t1_jcgwnq9 wrote
that's the function of life, purpose is self-imposed
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments