Submitted by berlinparisexpress t3_11nxvg4 in Futurology
[deleted] t1_jbq0ba9 wrote
I think a Universal Basic Income is just that - basic income. Lots of people are still going to want more: prestige from esteemed jobs, stature in their communities, feelings of professional accomplishment, ownership over their own businesses and labor, they'll want nicer cars, bigger boobs and better homes, academic choices for their children, vacations, clothes, security, nose jobs, etc etc.
A UBI can give people a small safety net.
$250 a month can mean the difference between rent or homelessness, paying a car note that's essential to getting to a job, being able to clothe your growing children. For others, it can mean a monthly membership write off to an Equinox gym. At the end of the day, I think people will want to work, it'll just give everyone a little bit more of a breathing room.
UncommercializedKat t1_jbsyx1d wrote
Yeah, arguing that nobody will want to work if UBI is enacted is like saying that nobody would spend a decade in college to become a doctor when you could be a janitor instead. People will always want more money and to have a job they are passionate about and gives them a sense of fulfillment.
czk_21 t1_jbumz8i wrote
the main argument for UBI is not really about wanting/not wanting to work but about not being able to- because AI can do whatever you would at much higher efficiency and it will not need lot of human coworkers, in other words there wont be enough work offered to meet the demand
UncommercializedKat t1_jbvhp7v wrote
I think people in the future might assign a value to a human-made work higher than than that of an AI work which will be nearly free. I think there will be plenty of work for those who want to work and we will have plenty of leisure time as well. I know that many years ago people thought electricity/steam engines would replace work and people would be unemployed but they didn't realize how much more complex the world could become and how many new jobs would be invented. At some point, all needs and wants will be automatically met and technology won't be able to advance any further but at that point we won't need money either.
czk_21 t1_jbx98rt wrote
there wont be new jobs at least not to the extent to replace old ones
why would you value human work more when AI can do it 1000+x better and 1000+x cheaper...I mean in context of hiring someone, you could value human art more for example for "authenticity" not that it would be better
DanFlashesSales t1_jc0tuvq wrote
>I think people in the future might assign a value to a human-made work higher than than that of an AI work which will be nearly free.
Hopefully at some point in the future humans will move beyond market economics so the whole question would be irrelevant.
Lyle_rachir t1_jbq6779 wrote
This so much this. So long as rent doesn't go up because of the ubi. This is exactly what should happen
mattp198723 t1_jbt8ax1 wrote
UBI with out of control inflation makes perfect sense for the braindead robots in society.
crunchycrispy t1_jbuocwd wrote
all valid points but i really hope it wouldn’t just be $250. that would fail to make the kind of difference it ought to. it should be minimum $1k a month but ideally more like $2k.
Takahashi_Raya t1_jctc5do wrote
a universal basic income would be around what is needed to live of. so if 250 a month is the cost you'd have then and there in a system with ubi. to survive a full month without having to live like an underpaid poor person.
so if 250 covers: food, housing, gas, electricity, internet(it's pretty much needed to do anything like a job so yeah it counts), and schooling then 250 is plenty.
crunchycrispy t1_jcvqc58 wrote
yeah that is nowhere near enough to live off of in the US. where do you possibly live?
Takahashi_Raya t1_jcvrfcq wrote
I think you are missing the point. I said if 250 is enough then it is enough I'm not aiming at a specific country with this. the 250 you should see is the bare minimum for whatever place a UBI is installed for. you can't really hang a price on it since it's dictated by the current prices of services.
crunchycrispy t1_jcwr8dx wrote
not sure how what you’re saying is relevant. my point was about the cost of living, and your point is the equivalent of saying “well if rent is $1 then that’s what it should be”
Takahashi_Raya t1_jcx65fc wrote
No im saying ubi adjusts to wathever the bare cost of living is and somehow you dint see that.
crunchycrispy t1_jcx6z6a wrote
i said $250 doesn’t cover that and your grand point is “but if $250 did cover that then it would be good”. by that logic yeah a UBI of $0.50 would be enough if $0.50 was worth $1500. not exactly contributing much
Takahashi_Raya t1_jcxkpde wrote
No you dont understand it apparently let me make it clear to you "a UBI system only works when the income you get covers your basic living costs" this means if 250 or 250.000 covers the basic living expenses that is the amount you get. You cant hang a price point on ubi right now because it adjusts based on the cost of everything.
Your argument of "that doesnt cover it" is honestly just dumb.
crunchycrispy t1_jcyq6wa wrote
you just said the exact same thing i said.
i understand your argument “if 250 covers basic living expenses that should be the amount”. my original point was that there is no world where 250 covers basic living expenses. do you understand? it’s really simple. i’m saying the same thing you are, i’m just using real world numbers and you keep acting like we live in 1942.
Takahashi_Raya t1_jcyqftq wrote
your real-world numbers are not realistic either. I was using 250 as an example I could have used anything else.
crunchycrispy t1_jd0eemx wrote
they are absolutely realistic where i live. where do you live?
Takahashi_Raya t1_jd0gp61 wrote
The Netherlands but that's not the point. it feels like I'm talking to a wall who doesn't understand the basic concept of UBI since all you are focusing on is the amount you'd need specifically for your place of residence which isn't the point of UBI. we are just going in circle's and frankly, I'm not in the mood for this stupidity going further. I'm ending this convo here.
crunchycrispy t1_jd13zu0 wrote
i am truly baffled as to why you felt the need to make this point that i was already making in the first place. i was simply saying that $250 was not enough to achieve UBI’s goals where I live, and here you are tying yourself in knots with anger saying “well the UBI should be whatever amount achieves it’s goals”. I can’t tell if this is a language barrier or not but you’re truly not making any point that contradicts what I’m saying.
LoxodonSniper t1_jbtaub0 wrote
Bare minimum for me to be able to actually save money and have a life would be $1000
Crezelle t1_jbuqdqn wrote
This. I have what I need but I still work to buy what I want
[deleted] t1_jbws7rj wrote
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mediocre_mitten t1_jbqbalr wrote
>it'll just give everyone a little bit more of a breathing room
"Sir, I'm going to have to revoke your breathing rights. You are two months behind on your mandatory $250 monthly breathable air fees. Now back to your daily stressful life!"
isleepinahammock t1_jbqo1g2 wrote
You joke, but this is actually a very plausible scenario towards the end of the century. If we don't get our emissions under control, by 2100, the CO2 level could be 800-1000 ppm. Levels 1000 and above start to have increasing effects on human beings. Above 1000, it will start to feel like being in a stuffy room, even while outside. Prolonged time in elevated CO2 environments like this actually has a measurable effect on human cognition.
But we know how to remove CO2 from a space, it just takes energy. And if people realize they can get noticeable performance and cognitive improvements by installing CO2 scrubbers inside buildings, they eventually will. People will do this for their homes, and companies at the point they become worth the cost. Currently, companies consider CO2 management for facilities like factories. They may add extra ventilation to make sure they don't exceed certain CO2 values. But if the whole atmosphere is at these levels, the only way to lower CO2 indoors will be to install CO2 scrubbers as part of the building's HVAC system.
Which means, yes, you could in theory have a service that rented out CO2 scrubbers for offices, schools, or private homes. If you failed to pay the bill to the CO2 scrubber company, you would have your scrubber repossessed. Or, alternately, the "scrubber" might use materials that chemically absorb CO2, and a technician stops by once and awhile to swap a cartridge out. That cartridge would then be recharged and the material recycled in a plant somewhere. In that case, if you don't pay the bill, your cartridge deliveries cease, and your indoor air quickly becomes as CO2-filled as the atmosphere outside.
So yes, in the future, you could literally have your access to fresh air cut off. If the atmosphere itself is so contaminated that it can't be comfortably breathed, people would seek to ameliorate this by moving to airtight, CO2-conditioned indoor spaces.
Oh, and here's a final bit of fun. In such a world, homes might have airlocks! Imagine a weird airlock that doesn't require you to wear a space suit. You don't want to have to open the front door and let all that CO2 in. Instead, you have a small room you enter. To leave, you first enter the airlock. The air inside the airlock is filled with low-CO2 air. The inner door closes, and the air inside is pumped down to a low, but still livable pressure. Maybe it pumps the air down to the equivalent of, say, a 15,000 ft elevation. The air removed from the airlock is pumped into the house. Then, the airlock is repressurized, but this time with air from the outside. The outer door opens. You leave. The outer door closes, and the airlock lowers its pressure again, shoving the surplus air outside. Finally, the airlock is repressurized, this time with air from the house. The inner door opens, and the cycle is complete. Reverse for someone entering the house. Essentially, a home airlock would serve as a means of preserving low-CO2 air. (A dedicated mudroom would also perform a similar function, though a mechanical airlock system would be much more efficient.)
hoppergrass127 t1_jbsatup wrote
Well this was an awesome comment. Thank you for the realistic dystopian imagery, but it hurts a little too much
[deleted] t1_jbwpq3v wrote
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mediocre_mitten t1_jbsrswo wrote
Well, that was disturbing. Totally doable and most likely will happen sometime in the future, especially so since the natural CO2 scrubbers of Earth (Amazon & congo rainforest come to mind) are being deforested for $$$ gain.
Always love to quote the late great George Carlin: "The Earth is fine, the people are fucked, but the earth will be fine."
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