zimtrovert94 t1_is8x5f5 wrote
Reply to comment by ChubbyProlapse in Accepted (2021) - A school in Louisiana is celebrated for putting traditionally underserved students into Ivy League colleges, but an investigation uncovers its charismatic founder's controversial methods (CC) [01:22:56] by thesecondfire
I remember I saw a report on this.
If I recall correctly, a sizable portion of the kids who got accepted in top universities end up dropping out anyways because they didn’t learn the material in high school.
TimeFourChanges t1_is9s180 wrote
That's true of many black students from the hood. I've been teaching in one of the worst school districts in the country, and even when we can get a kid to graduate with decent looking credentials, they very seldomly graduate from the college - and then end up saddled with debt without a degree.
It's not only that the kids don't learn the essential knowledge, they don't learn/know the essentials of persverence, have immense issues with self-confidence due to stereotype threat, don't have the social capital, don't know how to take notes or study, etc. It's all-around quite depressing.
FILTHBOT4000 t1_isam1zr wrote
Saw it happen a lot in Atlanta with inner city schools and some other schools as well; they don't want to lose funding so they drop the testing standards and pressure teachers to pass students that have no business doing anything but failing, so they look like they have a decent % graduating. Then you have colleges stuck with a crop of students that learned fuckall in high school, and start pressuring college professors to drop their standards as well. Wasn't there an article recently about some biochem professor getting fired because he refused to lower testing standards?
winterfresh0 t1_isayv6a wrote
>Wasn't there an article recently about some biochem professor getting fired because he refused to lower testing standards?
I'd have to know the context for that one, sometimes that kind of story is actually just "professor is so bad at teaching that the majority of the class fails the exam because the professor didn't properly prepare them". Or even a situation where they teach or test a 200 level course as if it's a graduate level one, and then act like it's the students' fault when none of the sophomores know what's going on.
ishipbrutasha t1_isbxl8p wrote
>sometimes that kind of story is actually just "professor is so bad at teaching that the majority of the class fails the exam because the professor didn't properly prepare them".
When is this story every that?
Been teaching nearly two decades. My incoming university students couldn't handle the 9th grade curriculum from when I was in high school.
I've never had a colleague who was so poor a teacher the majority wound up failing due to their poor instruction. And I've disliked a fair number of my colleagues, but not enough to levy that criticism. There's a good number of "research" professors out there who may be ill-at-ease in a classroom, but I thought my first university students were poorly prepared NCLBers. I'd kill for those students now.
Marchesa-LuisaCasati t1_isnsyed wrote
As an undergrad, i took a graduate integrated cognitive psych class in the dark ages when you had to type in an exact web address to go anywhere on the internet. Back then, to use a computer i had to go to the lab because i couldn't afford to buy one. In that class, the professor was attempting to teach us to program digital neural networks. I had limited knowledge of computers outside of word processing which was still f-key driven. I dropped that class about 3 weeks in and never looked back. It was totally inappropriate for a 400-level class.
ishipbrutasha t1_isuldg8 wrote
>i took a graduate integrated cognitive psych class in the dark ages when you had to type in an exact web address to go anywhere on the internet
You took a graduate level class and were surprised by the work?
And a 400-level class is the end of undergrad study. And if it were a graduate course like you say, it was probably a hybrid 400/600 level course.
So you took a class that you were unprepared for and are blaming the teacher? That's odd. No wonder people are leaving the academy.
Marchesa-LuisaCasati t1_isusx0o wrote
Yep. It was a 400/600 level class. My university referred to them as "graduate integrated." I successfully took several of them as an undergrad.
Are you for real?....i described the fact that not everyone even had access to computers back then much less had familiarity with coding. There was no computer science prerequisite required for this psychology course, it was not described as a computer class in the course description, and you're coming at me saying i was "unprepared" as if it were a failing on my part? That's an odd take on inappropriate instruction. After i graduated, i went on to change fields and get a master of science in nursing from an "elite" university and can assure you the "problem" with that course was that instructor.
ishipbrutasha t1_isxhd16 wrote
So, you went on to get a masters in a whole other discipline that had nothing to do with the course you were taking? And in, well, nursing. What does that have to do with the price of beef? If you had told me you went to get a masters in AI/machine learning/data science that would give your opinion a little more credence.
You curiously haven't said anything about the teacher's shortcoming as an educator, only that you were out of your depth in the class.
I have degrees (plural) from elite institutions. Guess I was the only one who learned to rise to a challenge from them.
Marchesa-LuisaCasati t1_isxnbq8 wrote
Well, it seems like you enjoy telling people they're sub-optimal and appear to lack compassion & disregard what other people write about their own experiences.
I took this course in about 1991 before the internet was much of a thing and even word processing was a clunky f-key driven mess. GUIs didn't exist in the consumer market. My university had only recently rolled out email. The course description didn't include any programming prerequisite. The course was described as a PSYCHOLOGY class without mention of the requirement to code. Sure, today, it would be reasonable to encounter & produce code in a graduate cognitive psych course. But in 1991, what i experienced was akin to showing up for a literature course and getting a calculus class instead. The phrases "AI" and "machine learning" weren't in popular circulation at that time. "Social media" and it's assorted algorithms weren't in existence. I assure you, i gave it a shot because i was interested but the instructor failed to teach HOW to do what he was requiring us to do. I suspect he didn't know what he was doing and was hoping to luck into a student project he could plagiarize or, at a minimum, lift code from. I got the distinct impression he wanted to do research in what became AI but didn't have the chops to get a grant and fund a lab. It was so egregiously off the mark from what the class was supposed to be (as described by the university's own published description) that i received a full refund despite having dropped the class outside the window to receive one. I wasn't the only student who dropped the course and filed a complaint.
And as, well, a nurse, i'm trained to save lives. I'm not sure if there's a profession which is called upon with more frequency to serve their communities. Good job being condescending! A+
Have a lovely day.
[deleted] t1_isnsj3d wrote
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zimtrovert94 t1_isbcj7c wrote
I feel that. I used to work in schools and now I’m working more in politics/educational public policy.
Some of these kids are talented. Really bright. But also give up at the first instance of a challenge.
And college is more than just academics. You do have to persevere. You do have to be accountable to yourself.
I’ve told students that in college, THEY have to schedule meetings with professors. THEY have to seek academic counseling. Not the other way around.
All of that is already a challenge in itself. I had many breakdowns in college. It’s not easy.
Bama_Peach t1_isbe2fh wrote
Hmmm… My son is a senior at an elite university and both he and I would argue that part of the reason he’s doing so well there is because he graduated from high school in an underserved community. He had to learn skills such as perseverance, taking initiative and critical thinking early on because if he wanted to do well in his studies he had no choice but to do those things. He definitely had a few teachers who genuinely cared and went above and beyond to help ensure his success but the majority of his teachers didn’t give a crap about the students and were just there for the check. Therefore, if he wanted to excel, he had to learn equip himself with the tools to do it on his own. Because of that, he walked into college much better equipped than a lot of his peers who had everything handed to them their whole lives.
Now, the culture shock and hostility that he encountered from bigots who felt he didn’t “deserve” to be there is a different story…but, just like he’s done with every other challenge in his life, he persevered and is on track to be graduate Cum Laude this spring.
zimtrovert94 t1_isbob2s wrote
Sorry if it came off that way. I’m not knocking on you or your son.
Not everybody that goes to elite schools come from elite backgrounds.
And if he has the opportunity to go to a top school and meet with elite people, I’m glad yo hear of his success.
But it’s definitely a culture shock. My friend went to Occidental and was from the lowest income background.
When people learned about this, they always offered to pay for her stuff. While I don’t think they had any malicious intentions, it did turn a bit insulting when they thought she couldn’t even afford a bottle of water, according to her.
While they could focus on school, she worked Americorp.
Bama_Peach t1_isbt1p4 wrote
Understood. I just wanted to provide my own personal ancedote as the perception seems to be that students from underserved communities who attend elite schools do terribly and flunk out because 1. They never should have been accepted in the 1st place and 2. They lack the talent and skills to excel in these colleges. My son’s and many of his friends’ experiences have been just the opposite.
Wagbeard t1_is9valp wrote
> "The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society. Negros live in them, but they do not make them any more than a prisoner makes a prison".
MLK
As a Canadian, this is driving me nuts. You guys were supposed to fix this crap generations ago and just be integrated and get rid of slums.
skaqt t1_is9vvpq wrote
You mean like how Canada 'fixed' their Boarding Schools?
Wagbeard t1_is9wqnx wrote
You're right but your government did the same stuff to your native demographic too to be fair. I'm talking about black people specifically. MLK liked Canada because we didn't have segregated black communities that your establishment exploits perpetually. The 'black' people in my neighborhood are just my neighbors and they go to the same schools as everyone else.
skaqt t1_isa26qi wrote
I'm not American, but yes the US govt did horrifying shit to the natives. Canada DID have segregation though, they just got rid of it a bit earlier than the US did. Nova Scotia had a segregated school in 1983:
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/racial-segregation-of-black-people-in-canada
Hefty-Revenue5547 t1_isa2qow wrote
Such an awful, naive understanding of history
sbsp13668 t1_isa2zha wrote
Not entirely true. Africville in Halifax was a segregated community that black people were forced to move to. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other major cities that had something similar in Canada. And, as for segregated schools, I remember when I was a kid hearing about the controversy of Toronto creating a school for black students, and it still exists: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/africentric-school-anniversary-1.5005262 However, at least Canadian colleges and universities don't have the same crazy acceptance policies for minorities as their American counterparts; which, as is shown in this documentary, do not set the students up for success.
liketreefiddy t1_isbadpd wrote
oMg wHaT YoU tOo?!?
TheReaperSC t1_isaafff wrote
I work in a poor, rural area in the southern US. While it is only their opinion, the older black teachers I have worked with through the years have all said the problems around here started with the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964. They remember government workers going door-to-door telling the young ladies they could get this, this, and this but they couldn’t have a man of the house. This is strikingly similar to how they proceeded when creating the Chicago high-rise housing complexes. 30 years later we had NAFTA take all the manufacturing businesses from our area. Add these things together and you have a majority of the population, whether white, black, or Native American, that doesn’t value education at all because they have never seen anyone use theirs. Some of my students are already 4th generation welfare recipients and have never seen anyone in their family work a steady job.
barrygurnsberg t1_isaqd2v wrote
It’s called gentrification and the activists don’t like it.
Wagbeard t1_isbn3ni wrote
Whatever you want to tell yourself. Bunch of racist dicks.
My3rstAccount t1_isa62x2 wrote
Oh, my bad. I thought we were supposed to turn the suburbs into the slums. It's cheaper that way.
Also provides jobs to the illegal immigrants we don't want, so they can build fancier, more expensive, cheaper made houses. What a circle of life.
kellymar t1_is9glav wrote
That’s a problem at many colleges, and not just with minority students. I’ve worked at two top tier colleges (one Ivy), and professors often complained about the quality of our students. Some students had to take remedial math and writing classes. We always wondered how they got admitted. Likely legacies.
planesflyfast t1_is9kxsy wrote
More likely not. People from that background are very often well educated and within their own social hierarchy well disciplined. I went to a pretty subpar public high school that always had one or two kids admitted to ivy league schools because they were presented as "Look what a shitty school this kid went to and see how smart they are despite of all that." It rarely went well. A few friends that recieved full ride scholarships to respectable universities both flunked out by the second semester. It's because the standards in high school were basically just show up and don't get in trouble.
kellymar t1_isaris4 wrote
I have a friend who is a reading specialist in a wealthy NJ school district. Parents will routinely complain to her that there is a mistake. They are doctors/lawyers/scientists, etc., and their children can’t possibly be struggling. She has to explain that it’s not a reflection on them. Even wealthy kids sometimes struggle. It doesn’t mean that they are stupid and it’s not a reflection of their parenting. But you’re right, wealthy kids certainly have more educational advantages, including access to private tutors.
PartyPorpoise t1_isax661 wrote
One interesting aspect of reading is that “background knowledge” plays a big part in reading comprehension. Kids from wealthy backgrounds tend to have more exposure to knowledge and information not just in school, but in their home life too.
PartyPorpoise t1_isao46z wrote
Yeah, at a shitty high school, a reasonably intelligent kid can make good grades without a lot of effort. The numbers look good, but they didn’t learn a lot.
Opening_Ad_3242 t1_isa7dh2 wrote
You still have to have high grades, test scores and extra curriculars to get in as a legacy. My friend applied to Notre Dame as a legacy (grandfather and father went there). Had a 3.8, 1400s on his SAT and was class president and played Varsity Tennis. Did not get in. I could have applied as a legacy too but had a 2.9 and would not even have had a chance. These schools don't just go "oh he's a legacy, come on in!". There's a finite number of people they take every year and there are plenty of legacies with perfect GPAs, high test scores and tons of extra curriculars to choose from.
Kobold_Archmage t1_isb33wo wrote
Should’ve donated more
ishipbrutasha t1_isbxxkn wrote
I know, right?
Opening_Ad_3242 t1_isciw01 wrote
They actually do donate and still do. The fact is, there's shit loads of legacies for them to choose from and many of them have perfect records, legacies who don't try hard aren't gonna make the cut, even legacies that do work hard don't make it.
mr_ji t1_isa95ox wrote
That's completely illogical. Legacies are typically going to come from successful, well-educated backgrounds and thrive. If this documentary is any indication, it's that the schools care more about artificial diversity than scholastic competency and students like this are the ones set up to fail when they actually have to perform. And many schools have said or demonstrated exactly that, like Harvard or the entire CA state system.
You can't fix issues in primary education in college unless you're willing to let the whole point of college change from enhancing education to being a poorly-executed social experiment, and the results speak for themselves.
PartyPorpoise t1_isanaib wrote
Grade inflation is a common problem in American public schools. The academic standards are so low that any reasonably intelligent student can get a good grade without much effort. A lot of kids pass without doing much work at all.
Marchesa-LuisaCasati t1_isohon0 wrote
My sister is a high school math teacher and she said they're specifically told they aren't permitted to fail more than 10% of their class in any given semester. She said she hands out A's to students who honestly try regardless of whether they succeed in math. She's been "counseled" at work for "giving" out too many D's....she had the point out the kids were all actually failing.
PartyPorpoise t1_isp5czv wrote
I did some substitute teaching and at some high schools, many of the kids can barely read or write. Yet they’re still encouraged to go to college.
Rdan5112 t1_isat4f5 wrote
It pisses me off that people seem to equate “elite universities” with “better”. It’s like putting a beginning swimmer on the Olympic team. They’ve got the best coaches, the best facilities, massive funding… it must be the best place to learn to swim… right? When people hear you were on the Olympic swim team, you can definitely get a job as a lifeguard, maybe even a coach…. Are we all tracking?
Bama_Peach t1_isb4zfq wrote
As someone whose child attends an "Elite University", I concur that these schools are in no way better. But what these schools do offer that so-called "non-elite schools" do not are unmatched networking and career opportunities.
My son (who would fit the title of a student from an underserved community due to our race and the high school he graduated from) will be graduating college in May and has already accepted a six-figure job offer with a Fortune 50 company. This company didn't care what his major was; hell - I don't think they even care what his cumulative GPA is going to be when he graduates - they just wanted a graduate from a top-14 school in their corporate office. Every single one of his classmates that isn't pursuing a post-grad degree got the same type of offer from a comparable corporation. That's why people are breaking their necks to get into these kinds of schools.
Edit: Corrected a typo
Marchesa-LuisaCasati t1_isnu83n wrote
You left out the part about if you get into a golden ticket school and you're from a middle or lower income family, the financial aid package is all grants and scholarships. The truly elite schools no longer use student loans as part of the financial aid package.
My kid also attended an "elite school" and graduated with ZERO student debt.
Bama_Peach t1_isoaqyz wrote
You’re absolutely right; that’s most definitely a benefit that I forgot to mention.
zimtrovert94 t1_isbc2k8 wrote
Exactly this. I went to a CSU. My network is significantly smaller than a UC Berkeley or USC.
And it sucks when half of the game is pure networking. Go to an elite school and you’ll literally run into people who worked with presidents or CEOs of major companies that can get you a big lead in.
At my CSU, I ran into more local politicians or business leaders. It’s a start but a far cry from elite unis.
Marchesa-LuisaCasati t1_iso4ljx wrote
I wish the documentarian had gone back to track the students which had already started at the elite universities to track their performance overtime. How many completed their degrees? How many went on to attend grad school, etc? They only really follow up with the one student at Yale and it's briefly mentioned that he has to seek tutoring (no shame in the tutor game).
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