lightknight7777 t1_iyda83o wrote on November 30, 2022 at 3:32 PM

Huh, that looks even more complicated than an American thermostat. Good luck, I'm very competent at our two wire system but that many cables for a basic light would drive me nuts. Too many points of failure.

I would still try to make sure all the wires are still actually in the contacts (might be loose or broken in one). If your systems run through multiple sockets and lamps, I'd make sure other ones are still functioning too. For example, I once had a full wall go down and found the problem was the head of a wire snapped off inside a wall outlet so the connection was cut to all other objects on the breaker.

BSPirat OP t1_iydca3d wrote on November 30, 2022 at 3:46 PM

Thanks to @Acceptable-Fox-4341 I now know how it works. Not so complicated as you see what is going on. All other lights on this level are working properly. My issue seems to be with the cable that comes from the switch to this rose.

lightknight7777 t1_iydh272 wrote on November 30, 2022 at 4:18 PM

Great, that's a lot easier then!

rvgoingtohavefun t1_iydhgjd wrote on November 30, 2022 at 4:20 PM

This type of wiring is actually quite common in older homes in the US as well and is why smart switches say "neutral required." There isn't always a neutral at the switch, depending on how it was wired.

You can run the power to the switch (neutral, hot, ground) switch the hot, and then run the neutral, switched hot, and ground to the fixture. This is probably what you're accustomed to.

You can run the power to the fixture, then run a 3 conductor (plus ground) cable to the switch. The white is unused for a standard switch. Black is hot, red is the output of the switch.

In the bad old days, you could run the power to the fixture, then run a 2 conductor (plus ground) cable to the switch and just switch the hot off and on. Assuming black/white conductors, the black is hot, the white is the output of the switch. There is no neutral at the switch. This is not allowed by code any longer. This is more or less what you see here.

In the picture, you can see there are three groups of screw terminals. The wires within each group are connected internally by that plate.

The left group (blue, two blacks) is the neutral, continuing the circuit for the next fixture (black) and connecting to the lamp (blue).

The middle group (red) is the hot.

The right group (black, brown) is the return from the switch.

In this setup, replacing the fixture just requires undoing the screws for blue and brown, removing the wires under them, putting the wires for the new fixture in the newly opened slots, and tightening the screws. It's no more complicated than anything you'd see in the US, arguably less so than anything involving wirenuts, especially if the power goes to the fixture first.

lightknight7777 t1_iydnvd2 wrote on November 30, 2022 at 5:02 PM

>arguably less so than anything involving wirenuts

I've taken to just wiring plugs at the end of wires so I will be able to just wire the male plug into new appliances I intend to replace old ones and just plug them in once it is time. So much easier to do that on the ground than have to deal with twisting those wirenuts at the top of a ladder. But these are for home and family/friends where I don't mind spending an extra $4 for future proofing. It's also a lot easier than installing a whole new outlet for things like garbage disposals where the person accidentally got a plug version so I don't have to worry about stripping the cabling and taping up the connections out in the open where water can be a problem.

EDIT: Apparently what I meant wasn't understood. I'm just converting the ends of the cables from a hardwired version to a plugged version. The female is always secured and it lets the appliance just plug directly into it. This is literally no different than it being a plugged appliance unless anyone knows any better. Plugs aren't special, they're just hardwired into the plug rather than directly into the junction box by way of wire nuts connectors or wago connectors.

rvgoingtohavefun t1_iye0h7z wrote on November 30, 2022 at 6:22 PM

I'm fairly certain what you're describing isn't legal at all.

It's supposed to be a secure mechanical connection. A plug that can pull itself apart sure isn't a secure mechanical connection. You may also be overfilling the box, which is a fire hazard in its own right. You can get arcing or excess heat (without excess current draw) which could cause a fire without ever actually tripping the breaker.

lightknight7777 t1_iye5mlk wrote on November 30, 2022 at 6:55 PM

If you plug a cable into an outlet it can pull out exactly the same. The female connector is always secured to the back wall and is no different than an outlet being there. And the appliance is firmly connected into the male plug hardware. I'm just converting the appliance to a plugged appliance.

https://youtu.be/JYBfMKp7Xrw?t=35

Am I not explaining something correctly? The only thing you have to know is that the plugs are the right spec. Like you wouldn't grab 220V plug adapters. It's literally like running an appliance to an outlet. I'm not talking about cramming anything into a cramped space.

What are you imagining I'm saying? Do you have any kind of example?

Like for example, let's take it to the most extreme possibility of just converting random things into plug versions, are you saying the following would be dangerous/illegal (the guy doesn't use a polarized plug like he should and is the epitome of a beginner, but I'm talking about the concept): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xuIeFafLIQ

The wires are secured into the plug. The plug coming unplugged wouldn't do any damage besides cutting the power. Really curious what you were thinking about.

rvgoingtohavefun t1_iyefwf2 wrote on November 30, 2022 at 8:01 PM

We're talking about light fixtures, here, or, at least, I thought we were. You said "deal with twisting those wirenuts at the top of a ladder", and most appliances (other than light fixtures, which I assumed you were referring to) aren't installed in a location that requires a ladder.

That first video is installing a stove/oven plug or dryer plug or something. I didn't really watch it. I'm not sure what you're getting at with that.

The second video is installing a fixture (that already uses flexible lamp cord) and plugging it into an extension cord (note that using an extension cord for permanently-installed fixtures is also not allowed, but that's not what we're talking about anyway).

We were talking about things that otherwise required wire nuts and were at the top of a ladder, so I presumed we were talking about normal light fixtures.

If you're putting a female end on the wires up in the ceiling and burying it INSIDE a junction box, that's not allowed.

lightknight7777 t1_iyegi3c wrote on November 30, 2022 at 8:05 PM

That's a lot of assumptions.

I'd be absolutely fascinated to know how you thought there being a plug there could cause an arc that would then somehow not short the breaker in a way that a wire nut would. From an electrical perspective, there's virtually no difference between a male to female plug connection and a wire nut.