Submitted by TonyFugginMontana t3_z7yhm4 in DIY
dominus_aranearum t1_iy96um2 wrote
Reply to comment by RedFiveIron in Garbage Disposal wired directly into Dishwasher - fixing wiring and adding outlets by TonyFugginMontana
All switches require a neutral in current code.
Switch boxes with light loads now require a neutral (grounded conductor). A disposal isn't a light load and is considered an exception.
404.2(C)(7)
StoneTemplePilates t1_iy99dgk wrote
Does that apply if you aren't replacing the switch though? If all op is doing is replacing the dishwasher and not altering anything with the actual wiring, I would think it would stand as is.
dominus_aranearum t1_iy9bgzn wrote
Somewhat irrelevant as the j-box for the dishwasher isn't going to be large enough for all the wires anyhow.
Technically, if only the dishwasher changed, then no, you wouldn't have to update the switch leg wire for the disposal, but if you're adding an outlet and GFCI, it should be brought up to code.
LongEngineering7 t1_iy9k3pi wrote
Well, also AFCI if you really want to bring it up to code, which is an ass-pain tbh. You can get GFCI/AFCI combination outlets. Those outlets only last for about ten years though before needing to be replaced, which not many people know about.
Wiring AFCI into a breaker is an extra pain that I would never attempt.
StoneTemplePilates t1_iy9toah wrote
What I was getting at is that op is completely overcomplicating this job by adding anything to it at all. (S)he began with a concern about the wiring being contained within the dishwasher and wanting to rectify that, but it doesn't need rectifying. Just change the dishwasher and move on is what I'm saying. Cheaper, quicker, and no code issues that be dealt with.
dominus_aranearum t1_iy9usi9 wrote
>but it doesn't need rectifying.
It does. I don't recall ever hooking up a dishwasher that had a j-box with enough volume for the extra wires.
StoneTemplePilates t1_iybmduo wrote
The wires were already installed that way, so clearly it's doable.
dominus_aranearum t1_iybnqwq wrote
Not code. New dishwasher necessitates it being brought up to code.
Additionally, it's unsafe and it can lead to heat issues, then fire.
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should, especially when it comes to safety with electrical. Most electrical code is written because of death, fire or other injury/damage.
StoneTemplePilates t1_iybo28v wrote
No it doesn't. Now you're just making shit up. Please cite the nec code that says so.
It is not unsafe. A junction box is a junction box, and it doesn't matter whether it is attached to the wall or to the dishwasher.
dominus_aranearum t1_iybp9fc wrote
314.16
StoneTemplePilates t1_iybulcz wrote
Here's the j-box on my dishwasher. 6in wide, 1-1/4in deep, 2-1/8in tall puts it just under 16in^3. Even taking a very conservative 1in^3 inch out for the connector in there, it's still plenty big enough for another 12/2 wire.
dominus_aranearum t1_iybvpf1 wrote
That's your dishwasher. Personally, I've never seen one that size, but it obviously exists.
What's really a shame is that you told me I was making shit up, basically calling me a liar. When I'm wrong, I admit it. Already did with the neutral at the switch. I own up to my mistakes because I learn from them. Rather than admit you made a mistake when I point out the NEC code for j-box fill requirements that you asked for, you instead go through the trouble of opening up yours to prove what? That yours is big enough. In the dozens I've installed/removed over my remodel career, I've never seen one that big. The code requirement is still there and is something to pay attention to.
StoneTemplePilates t1_iybw7bh wrote
Lol, I sure didn't make any mistake. I asked what code you were referring to since you seemed to be stating that the new dishwasher requires all wiring it connects to to be brought up to code. If I thought you were referring to j-box size, I'd have told you you were wrong to begin with.
Also, the "trouble" of opening mine up was three screws. What kind of lazy electrician are you, anyway? I told you you're making shit up, because you are. You're all over this post citing nec and so far you've been wrong more than you've been right.
Edit: I also just saw your other comment about the space required being 13.25in^3. that's not correct either, because you are assuming the clamp is inside the box, which it usually is not, especially on a small box. With a very common size being around 2"x2"x3", I'd wager that just about any dishwasher j-box is big enough or very close to it.
bluGill t1_iy9pgj6 wrote
When a job goes from a grandfathered in allowed minor change to a major change requiring updating to the latest code is not well defined. In general I would expect that since it was already like that you are only making a minor change. However you would need input from a local inspector (or possibly a lawyer) to say for sure
StoneTemplePilates t1_iy9ubk7 wrote
Or, ya know, don't try to fix what ain't broken. Seeing as there is no safety concern and really no benefit to adding a receptacle, just replace the dishwasher and leave everything else as is. No inspector needed for that.
RedFiveIron t1_iy9bkov wrote
Do you mean a ground?
dominus_aranearum t1_iy9dcfz wrote
No. Current code as of NEC 2017 requires that all j-boxes with a device have a neutral wire. This includes switches. The neutral wire gets capped off when not used by the switch.
It's to allow for potential future devices like smart switches.
Wildcatb t1_iy9fxzm wrote
Good Lord what a mess.
KamovInOnUp t1_iy9i3pu wrote
Not really. You should have a neutral in your boxes anyway
Wildcatb t1_iya7hky wrote
You should have a neutral where one is needed. Switch legs don't need one, nor do many multiphase circuits.
Codewriters are now requiring people to install additional conductors 'just in case' which, while good practice shouldn't be law.
KamovInOnUp t1_iyars6r wrote
It absolutely should be law.
It's not the 1980's anymore, and there's no reason to be designing or building houses without the necessary electrical system to utilize modern consumer technology.
There's nothing additional to install, you just can't cut corners with cheaper 2-wire cables anymore.
Wildcatb t1_iyb4ulv wrote
There's nothing additional to install, you just have to install an additional conductor...
...whether you want 'smart' switches or not.
I'm reminded of when I built my house and installed old fashioned shower and sink valves in my bathrooms. The inspector initially refused to sign off because I didn't have modern fixtures.
No, this isn't something that needs to be mandated.
KamovInOnUp t1_iybe9hy wrote
If you're "installing" individual conductors you have much bigger problems
rivalarrival t1_iy9xo9z wrote
False. Current code only requires lighting switches to have a neutral, and even then there are 7 broad exceptions listed in the code, and 3 of those exceptions could apply here.
404.2(C).
dominus_aranearum t1_iy9yk7i wrote
I corrected this prior to your comment but thanks anyhow.
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