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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mck4u wrote

Reply to comment by ZimofZord in LE CREUSET stockpot - not really BIFL by crysardo

Please don’t be offended, but that mindset is very outdated. Location doesn’t matter, it’s the companies specs. The Chinese manufacturers make the exact same parts with the exact same standards. If there’s a problem, it’s the companies fault not the manufacturer.

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jantron6000 t1_j0mec8r wrote

If they can make the iPhone, they can make anything. Virtually nothing is more exacting or complicated and I've never had one that was less than flawless. Often there is an association with production being shipped to China and a drop in quality, but that's because the company is likely trying to cut costs more than one way at the same time. Very common to see materials or specs slip at the same time as outsourcing or the brand gets sold to someone else who keeps the name and lowers the quality. Edit: high-end musical instrument manufacture is another good example, see Eastman

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0merpj wrote

Exactly!!!! Preach!!!! The location doesn’t matter. Companies say make this, these are your standards. Then the manufacturer does it, it has nothing to do with “CHINA”…

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Snuggledtoopieces t1_j0mi5jc wrote

China is notorious for sub standard metallurgy.

You can say where doesn’t matter but when their is an inherent flaw in the source material and production chain not much the manufacturer can do.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0migfn wrote

Not true, that is a pure lie. Raw materials used to make products is chosen by the company, it’s their specifications. Manufacturers don’t just get to do it their way. They do exactly what they’re told to do. If the metallurgy is poor it is because the company allowed the manufacturer to use it.

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Snuggledtoopieces t1_j0mjfrd wrote

Say whatever you want I’m metallurgical engineer, any projects where we source Chinese pipe or stainless components you get significantly higher “off batches” that are out of spec compared to basically any other source but India.

But whatever you’ve probably got tons of experience with the subject.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mjpw7 wrote

I too am an engineer. Like I said in another comment. I focus on materials, processes, and products. I know all too well that they CAN do it the same. If they don’t it is the fault of the company that specs the product and processes.

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Snuggledtoopieces t1_j0mk93v wrote

You can make first class products anywhere in the world, China chooses to do a shitty Job.

You want good steel go to Germany or France.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mkrib wrote

They make it that way because it’s affordable. Not because they suck. People buy shitty steel, because it’s cheap. Not everyone needs world class steel. Price points. It’s not that they can’t, they spec it that way on purpose. You know that! You also know not every product is going to be perfect, maybe china isn’t the industry leader on steel. But the US isn’t the industry leader on enameled cast iron.

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Snuggledtoopieces t1_j0mm69d wrote

So you are literally admitting they make shitty steel. On purpose. So what exactly are you arguing? That they could do better if they wanted too?

Le creuset isn’t supposed to be cheap it’s supposed to be the best.

China is not where you get pots and pans manufactured,and you know that.
Any self respecting manufacturing company with a modicum of self respect and product identity would know that as well and not tolerate the quality drop.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mmgo7 wrote

The le cruset made in France is identical to the ones made in China and Taiwan period. As long as they are the same model and specs. Period. It is an Engineering fact.

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Snuggledtoopieces t1_j0mnmgv wrote

So they are made by the exact same machines, with the exact same source materials, inspected by the exact same quality control. You know none of that is true. But you are still arguing like it’s a fact.

It’s hard to have all products meet the exact same specifications in the same plant between lines.

There are very few facts in life, saying that two products from two separate facilities across the world in different climates are a 1-1 on spec is hubris at best. You obviously have much looser tolerances.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0moj27 wrote

It’s a Dutch oven, not aerospace. I’m done arguing with you. If it is the same product, then it has same machine, same processes, same quality control, same standard work, same specs, same raw materials, same damn product. If it is different it’s because the company allows it. Companies choose everything about their products. I’m not gonna sit here and let a metallurgist tell me about products, that’s stupid. I am a product engineer, you are a metallurgist.

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Snuggledtoopieces t1_j0mp9l6 wrote

You are literally sitting here telling me about metal, I’m a metallurgical and mechanical engineer. I don’t care if it’s your specialty in this instance you are wrong.

The feedstock is fucked that’s all there is too it.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mppy1 wrote

The raw materials for products are chosen by companies. Are you not listening? If your pipe from China is ass it’s because it was specified to be that way. it was specced to be cheap. If you can’t agree with that then just go away. Go fuck a spectrometer.

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CartographerFew8764 t1_j0n6fcw wrote

Engineers bickering lol, whats new. But yeah youre right. The company chose not to spec the proper material and the maufacturer used it to the detriment of the product. The company i work for buys bulk metal products from china all the time and they have their issues but we do it knowing it is that way vs paying 3x for a 1.5x better product. Youre right that they could give the manufacturer the same spec and it would be the same product. China is just as capable as france, but i dont think they do. They make it cheaper and hope the product gets by on the brand name alone. If you want the better pot buy the one from france cause they actually do have the proper specs and qc.

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MorningHerald t1_j1632rz wrote

You should have ended this argument about 5 posts ago because you look sillier with each and every comment as you try to dig yourself out of this hole.

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adj1091 t1_j0nw61o wrote

Even if the materials are chosen correctly, they’re still made in China And in my experience China is hardly ever able to produce material certs that match spec, and US engineers look the other way. By the time you’re asking for certs, millions or billions have been spent, and often product has already been shipped. There’s really no bureaucratic way to unwind the mess that was made way above your pay grade.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0nwdia wrote

Not true, that is false, and it is rooted in prejudice

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adj1091 t1_j0ny9w3 wrote

I’m just speaking from my experience as an SQE in automotive 10 years ago. There’s no prejudice everyone tries to cut corners, everyone wants a cheaper supplier, faster.

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johanvts t1_j0mmxjk wrote

I don't know if it's the best example. As I understand the iPhone production in china is mainly assembly and is being done by pretty much untrained staff hired straight from the Chinese countryside (see the recent riot). You are placing high quality components together, but it seems like a much different skillset to producing something more bespoke like a high end cast iron pot.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mp0uh wrote

Making cast iron cookware is surprisingly simple believe it or not. One of the easiest things to make on the planet.

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johanvts t1_j0mrqec wrote

Yeah I believe that. I just don't think iPhone assembly is really an all encompassing craft either.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0ms4qu wrote

Well it’s not super easy. Tiny electronics is HARD. I was restoring an old Gameboy, and man you gotta have surgical hands for it. I just mean small parts is a pain to deal with, I’m not an electronics expert.

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Rd28T t1_j0mivvu wrote

China can make to the same standards - but very often does not. Not all Western companies bother to be, or are capable of being as stringent as Apple.

Purchasing from a respected manufacturing location still gives you a much higher chance of getting better quality.

As a general rule, a quality brand that still manufactures at ‘home’ only makes their budget range products offshore. Canon cameras are an example. The top shelf stuff made in Japan, the ‘throw it out when it gets a lens fault code at 4 years old’ stuff is made elsewhere in Asia.

Chinese steel is also absolute crap (soft, and rusts if you look sideways at it) and that impacts anything made of that material.

Yes, China can make world class goods, but they are surrounded by a mountain of crap.

Buying something made in Europe, Japan, Australia or the States (most things) is a good place to start for getting long lasting products.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mjftf wrote

I agree with what you’re saying but you don’t realize you’re agreeing with me. China CAN do it, but often times companies loosen their specs on Chinese goods. That’s not chinas fault, that’s the company. The machines and processes used are often identical. As I’m sure you know, you sound smart.

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Rd28T t1_j0mkmbw wrote

I don’t care whose ‘fault’ it is. I’m not attaching a moral judgement to the concept. My point is that you are far more likely to end up with crap if it’s made in China.

Yes there are exceptions, yes the reasons are complex, but it is what it is.

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Archberdmans t1_j0nj4bg wrote

Yeah if you buy a companies “cheaper brand” made anywhere you’re gonna get crap to make you buy their expensive one. Made in China, made in Indonesia, made in India, doesn’t really matter.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0ml41f wrote

Because of the company…

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Rd28T t1_j0mlsl6 wrote

Like I said, don’t care whose ‘fault’ it is. We can blame the Queen of Sheba if you like.

The fact is that ‘made in China’ = ‘crap’ far more often than ‘Made in Germany’ or ‘made in Japan’. That fact doesn’t go away because you try to apportion ‘blame’ for the problem.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mm2gy wrote

Well I have more than 3 brain cells, so I don’t associate locations with quality. I look at the product itself and if it’s shit, I know it’s because it was specified to be that way.

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jobblejosh t1_j0p441l wrote

It's moreso the emphasis on quality control.

You can have whatever manufacturing requirements you want, but if a substandard product (because, as an engineer, you'll know that it's impossible for 100% of products manufactured to be perfect, no matter your Quality Assurance processes, purely down to random chance eventually) makes it past QC without actually being properly checked, that product which is defective in some way will make it to a consumer.

Sure, it's impossible for every defective product to be found, but a robust enough QA/QC system should be able to catch the vast majority.

Unfortunately if your QA/QC standards aren't high enough, and you say 'Good Enough', then a shoddy product will make it through.

Different parts of the world have different cultural acceptance of 'Good Enough'. Which means if the foundry that makes the steel buys in poor quality coke because 'Good Enough', then chances are their steelmaking process is 'Good Enough'. Then whatever raw feedstock they produce might not be great quality, but hey, 'Good Enough'. If the market accepts it, why bother making higher quality steel when you won't make more money and you'd end up spending more and reduce profits.

The casting foundry receives this poor quality steel, goes 'Good Enough', melts it down and casts it, but they don't cool it properly to ensure the right properties and phase structure. But hey, 'Good Enough'. The shoddy castings get a quick once-over, stuck in a box, get a QC stamp, and get sent to the factory that fits them to a final product.

The final factory sees the shoddy castings, but hey, 'Good Enough'. If they reject them then they'll have to slow production, and the foundry might stop supplying to them. They'd have to get more expensive castings from a different foundry. But if the consumers will tolerate it, hey, send it through, fit it, and your shoddy product gets made 'Good Enough'.

You can specify whatever manufacturing processes and requirements you want, unless you actually stick to them they're next to worthless. And if your entire factory doesn't give a shit enough about sticking to the process, guess what? They'll make shitty products.

China can definitely make high quality products. Anker is a Chinese brand of powerbanks and charging products, and they're pretty damn good. Only because they place a legitimate emphasis on high quality processes.

Unfortunately, it's cheaper to make shitty products, so as long as the market will accept shitty quality, the factories will continue to produce shitty products.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0pg6vy wrote

I have continuously said it’s the companies fault. Everything you described is the companies fault.

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jobblejosh t1_j0pk57e wrote

I don't disagree especially.

What I disagree with is your claim that something's shit because the company specified it wrongly.

If you produced widgets in Germany, the expected standard of the supply chain will be high, because industry there expects to have product returned or rejected if it isn't of suitable quality; both with consumers and business-to-business transactions. It's comparitively easy to get a high quality product from a supplier there; they'll advertise based on quality, certifications, reliability, and provable facts.

In China however, companies need to be a lot more on the ball; you're more likely to have a supplier push the bounds of quality as far as they can go, and skimp on things they think won't be noticed by the buyer. Because the buyer knows this and may well be complicit further on, it's just accepted as a cost of doing business, and as long as someone buys it at the end, who cares about the quality.

Western companies often have people with experience in Chinese markets who are able to source quality components and produce quality products. The idea of 'Cha Bu Duo' sums it up.

To be clear, I think it's a fusion of companies not being familiar with business in the Chinese landscape, and a cultural acceptance in China of somewhat lower quality than the western world would be used to. The blame isn't solely on one side's shoulders.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0pkud3 wrote

I disagree strongly, but I clearly can’t change your mindset. So agree to disagree.

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Substantial_City4618 t1_j0mdwqa wrote

They have the capability, the mindset of the manufacturer sending to China in the first place gives you a clue of their motives and why they will never spend the additional effort and cost.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0me71n wrote

Yes, you confirmed what I said. It’s the company and their specs. If they’re willing to use foreign labor they likely have less pride in their specifications and engineering. It’s not the Chinese manufacturers. Foreign manufacturers make the products they’re told to, and are actually much better at it than US manufacturers.

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Substantial_City4618 t1_j0mev7e wrote

Branding wise, “made in China” will need 50 years of solid performance to lose their current reputation.

I wouldn’t say better, the machines are exactly the same.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mgrze wrote

Machines are the same yes, specs are the same, etc, but they make products faster, therefore are better.

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Dolmenoeffect t1_j0pqlw5 wrote

You're assuming that any given manufacturer is in fact following the specs given to them. That's not a safe assumption in this case. Sometimes they do, sure, and sometimes they make literally the cheapest thing they can get the foreign company to pay them for and pocket the difference.

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0ptd9y wrote

Yeah no that’s not real. Manufacturers make parts to spec. Period. It’s the companies fault for specifying their parts that way. Your opinion is rooted in prejudice and ignorance

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Radishingz t1_j0nv0vs wrote

My lexus IS was made in Japan. Best car ever. My 4runner, made in Japan. Flawless. My lexus ES was made in the US. Few little flaws thats fpr sure.. i know its a small sample but ill buy japanese before anything else..

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0nvf3i wrote

All made with parts made all across the globe, often many of the same parts

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Delicatefawn t1_j0p7piu wrote

Dude why are you simping so hard for China on this post lmao

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0pg8gk wrote

Because I hate ignorant people

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Radishingz t1_j0pkjhp wrote

Even if you have common parts the assembly makes all the difference. Quality and defect tolerance is something I care about. Really? Ignorant? I respect your view, respect others'.

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ZimofZord t1_j0md9kb wrote

Have yet to have a good made in China product

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mdo82 wrote

Like I said, it’s the same specs and standards. The location has absolutely nothing to do with the product. If you have never gotten a good product then you should blame the companies specs.

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ZimofZord t1_j0mdsyc wrote

Sure sure. /s

Ill stick to spending money in my home country instead of buying China

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mekek wrote

Says the person that owns more things manufactured in foreign markets than US. My credentials: Engineer in the manufacturing industry focusing on materials, processes, and products. Your credentials: probably some uneducated redneck who thinks the US makes the best products in the world. In my experience foreign manufacturers are SIGNIFICANTLY better at making products than the lazy expensive U.S. workforce…

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ZimofZord t1_j0mgl65 wrote

Oh little touchy 😂😂😂😂😂😂 keep US jobs in the US and buy US that’s my philosophy

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Notsobigdeal t1_j0mh65f wrote

That’s how I know ur full of it. You went from saying the products are bad to speaking on ethics and philosophy.

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ZimofZord t1_j0mi1pf wrote

Yeah they are many benefits to buying US only not just 1

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