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djh_van t1_isbcu5a wrote

Reply to comment by caroonth in Dishwasher keeps going by Atlantic76

Also, the amount of electronics on Tue new ones...Sheesh.

I remember talking to an appliance repair guy years ago, who said it as basically as possible: circuit boards and water don't mix.

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PM_ME_Dog_PicsPls t1_iscx85h wrote

Appliance repair guys are often boomer or boomer-esque guys who don't like change and have a pretty miopic view of reliability that's limited to what they like to work on.

Same thing with some mechanics. Still here old grumble mechanics talk shit about Japanese cars as if a 2005 Corolla isn't more reliable and repairable than whatever golden age hayday car they're thinking of.

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djh_van t1_iscxm1a wrote

Yeah...but a mechanical device exposed to moisture tends to keep working.

Same thing with an electronic design will be way more sensitive and prone to failure.

If I had to choose between a mechanical and electronic device that achieves the exact same task without losing out on any functions, I'd rather have the mechanical version.

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BoilerButtSlut t1_isds2bn wrote

The issue isn't mechanical vs. electronic.

Electronics can easily last decades. Just go look at electronic controllers in any older factory: it's not hard to find stuff from the 70s/80s working just fine.

Electronic is inherently much more longer-lasting than any mechanical system. Hence why you don't see mechanical controllers for things in places like factories anymore: if they were more reliable then that's all they would use. It's not at all hard to seal off electronics from water or harsh environments.

Electronics just lend themselves to cut cutting much more easily than mechanical does. With a mechanical timer/controller you can't really do much outside of move to cheaper materials or lower tolerances. With electronics you can move to much cheaper components that aren't as rugged or can't handle temperature swings as well as the durable stuff does.

Moving to very cheap electronic components can easily reduce cost by 10x or more. Moving to cheaper mechanical components might save you like 10-20%. So that's why cheap appliances tend to have electronic parts that don't last long. Premium/commercial grade appliances with electronics should have no trouble lasting decades though.

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NWO_Eliminator t1_isda3fr wrote

Appliance durability/reliability mostly peaked in the 70's with some designs into the 80's. Electronics are nice when engineers have their say and extra money is designed into them for longer life. Some of 80's electronics are still going 30+ years later simply because they were much better engineered. That is most certainly not the case today. Control boards are designed on the cheap for maximum profit in 3rd world countries under not-so-great conditions with poor QA. Some manufactures obsolete them in as little as 3-5 years after product line has ran its course and the owner is forced to buy a new appliance when it fails. Not only is that planned obsolescence to a "T", it's very wasteful and hard on the environment. I'm friends with engineers and they're screamed and yelled at, even threatened with their job, when making a good long lasting design saying the company will be out of business if the design isn't cheapened. This is not an exaggeration, it's very real.

Autos are a different story. Older vehicles are more simple but require a bit more attention and better diag skills although modern ignition systems can be implemented, giving them nearly the same maintenance schedule of a 90's vehicle. The mid to late 90's through the early 2000's for Toyota was the peak of simplicity and reliability. Today, their product is still good but the insane complication in the electronics department is the caveat. When I went with my mother couple of years ago to scope out a new car, the salesman asked her what she was currently driving. It was a 21 year old Toyota Camry with over 300,000 miles. The Toyota salesman laughed and said none of their new cars would last that many decades and miles without electronics and transmission failures.

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BoilerButtSlut t1_isdspgj wrote

I wouldn't trust any car salesman's opinion on the engineering of the cars they sell. Like, at all.

>when making a good long lasting design saying the company will be out of business if the design isn't cheapened. This is not an exaggeration, it's very real.

Correction: they are screamed at for not making their cost targets. I've never heard of any company that has complained about making something longer-lasting at no cost.

Missing cost targets can easily make a product unprofitable and ruin the whole program.

It is not planned obsolescence. That isn't a thing. I've never heard of any engineer being told to explicitly make something break earlier by design.

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NWO_Eliminator t1_ise4074 wrote

No, they were screamed at to cheapen the design or fear going out of business. It had nothing to do with costs.

Over 20 years ago, I wanted to be an engineer to build quality appliances because I already saw the writing on the wall. In the downturn of 2001, I ended up working with some engineers at an electrical company (slave wages and working conditions) that were laid off who did that for a living. They told me how the real world works and set me straight. Thankfully, I dodged that bullet. Before that, I was a big gear head and wanted to work on cars for a living but during the last portion of my college schooling, I talked to a mechanic who owned his own business for 28 years and he sternly warned me not to get into the business. It's hard dirty work, being exposed to horrible chemicals, exhaust fumes, crappy working conditions, and extremely difficult to keep up with newer evolving technologies. The pay also does not even begin to reflect the work unless you own your own business. That's the only way to make in the automotive world without going poor and destroying your body before retirement age. Another dodged bullet.

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BoilerButtSlut t1_isffziz wrote

>No, they were screamed at to cheapen the design or fear going out of business. It had nothing to do with costs.

I'm calling bullshit on that. It all comes back to cost at the end of the day. Longevity isn't free. It costs money. Adding costs can easily kill a program. I've seen a few cents increase in costs completely cancel years-long programs.

Cheapen the design literally means reducing the cost.

I don't know of any engineer ever that was told to reduce a product's lifetime without any gain out of it (lower cost, easier production, better parts availability, etc): unless you own 100% of the marketspace, people can easily just buy your competitor's product and you don't gain from it.

I'm sure there's a handful very niche companies (where there is indeed market capture) where something like this happens, but it's so rare I can't think of any example.

Most of the time I just see people getting what they pay for. I have no trouble finding quality stuff, it just costs more than what most people think is reasonable.

My wife's family think I'm insane for how much I spend on appliances. Years later I've yet to buy another dishwasher/blender/washer/dryer/etc while they are on their 2nd or 3rd set.

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NWO_Eliminator t1_isg58mm wrote

I got this information from the engineer directly. I don't know what else to tell you.

Spending extra money on an appliance use to be a guarantee for a better built, longer lasting design. That is not the case anymore.

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BoilerButtSlut t1_iskscnx wrote

It was never a guarantee. You can buy something expensive and have it still be crap.

However the reverse is patently false: you can't cheap out on cost and end up with quality. It is impossible to buy quality without spending more money for something like this.

We have example of stuff lasting 20+ years in today. This isn't a lost art. There are companies that still make quality stuff, especially since commercial businesses rely on these. Ive designed stuff that is sitting on shelves right now and I know how the business works.

If you don't want to believe that, that's on you, but you're just making things hard on your self for no reason.

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PM_ME_Dog_PicsPls t1_isdfgg1 wrote

That Toyota guy was wrong. Most of the older ones didn't get to 300k without major repairs either.

There are definitely new cars that will make it that long and far without major issues. It won't be typical but it wasn't for older vehicles either.

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NWO_Eliminator t1_isdzynq wrote

Nope, my mothers 2001 Camry (still going) is over 300K miles. I replaced the drivers side door handle (about 250K) and drivers side window regulator (290K). Other than regularly scheduled maintenance, that's it.

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caroonth t1_isbdo9x wrote

I'm sure my new one saves water (in theory, but since I have to handwash before I load now, maybe not), but it certainly must use more electricity with it's circuitry and 3 hour cycles.

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